Advanced Open Water Disappointment

[wetb4igetinthewater]

on what evidence?

Rectal sources

 

[tarponchik]

I'm not sure I agree. Some number had to be picked, maybe it should have been 40, 50, or 70, but somewhere in there is appropriate. To say that it is simply a revenue grab seems short-sighted. We use common sense judgements to set somewhat arbitrary boundaries about all kinds of things -how fast you can drive, how much you can drink and drive a car, how old you need to be etc.

The Ow training is very fast (and very efficient if done well) but it just takes time (dives) for people to acquire the necessary degree of comfort at depth to allow them to function deeper without too much risk. It is well known that the first 20 or so dives a diver makes are relatively dangerous.

1. If you can't pick up the number between 40, 50 or 70, then such number should not be picked up.
2. So you are telling me that AOW certification should be based on the number of dives? OK, I tend to agree with this.

 

[scubaozy]

What I am getting at is that the limit of 60 ft for OW was set arbitrarily, and there is no rational explanation based on laws of physics, empirical observations or medical necessities for this particular depth. This leaves just one possibility mentioned above: revenue.

You have to draw a line somewhere.. How are the speed limits on roads are set? Partially with the intent of reducing the fuel consumption. Apply same logic for diving, reduce the gas consumption and stay out of trouble by staying shallow, added safety of having longer NDL as well as stay away from narcosis. These are not rational enough? 60ft is anyway a recommended max depth, not a legal limit.
Interestingly max limits of rec diving also coincide with gas density limits on air; I will quote:
"Working with both open-circuit and rebreather divers, Anthony and Mitchell found that gas density near the 6 g/l mark significantly increased the risk of dangerous CO2 retention during dives, resulting in their test subjects failing more than half their attempted dives and experiencing issues at more than three times the rate of divers using gas even 1 g/l less dense. Their takeaway from this research was an ideal maximum gas density of 5.2 g/l (equivalent to air at 102 fsw/31 msw), and a hard maximum of 6.2 g/l (equivalent to air at 128 fsw/39 msw)."

 

[Forbin's Descent]

You have to draw a line somewhere....These are not rational enough? 60ft is anyway a recommended max depth, not a legal limit.

So I can do my OW and be qualified down to 60'. The very next day I can start my AOW and complete it over the next couple days by going to the quarry and doing a 61' dive, swim from one side of the quarry to the other with a compass, identify a couple fish in the quarry and take a couple pictures in the quarry and of course pay my $450 and then this qualifies me to go whipping down the Santa Rosa wall at 100', dive below the hydrogen sulfide layer in Cenote Zapote or hunt for Meg teeth off the coast of North Carolina?

Whether the 60' is a legal limit or not the boats (well some of them) make me go through these arbitrary steps to do the dives past 60.'

Gotta pay the gatekeeper. The line that is drawn is the bottom line. It's as simple as that.

 

[CT-Rich]

Would we be having this discussion if everything was exactly the same and the courses were named OW1 and OW2? I think people are getting hung up on the word advanced as if it had some magical meaning. OW says you have training to go to 60' AOW says you have been trained to go to 130'. It does not say you are capable of doing all dives to 130'. It does not say you are capable of low vis, high current, hot drops, penetrations.

It says, you understand enough about diving to make a benign dive to 130'.

There is a gate keeper and he wants to get paid. Plenty of boats going out to challenging sites want to see your log to make sure they are not getting a problem child.

 

[tursiops]

I can start my AOW and complete it over the next couple days by going to the quarry and doing a 61' dive, swim from one side of the quarry to the other with a compass, identify a couple fish in the quarry and take a couple pictures in the quarry

No, you can't, unless the instructor is breaking standards, like yours did.

 

[Forbin's Descent]

OW says you have training to go to 60' AOW says you have been trained to go to 130'. It does not say you are capable of doing all dives to 130'. It does not say you are capable of low vis, high current, hot drops, penetrations.

You are correct but this is how the dive trip operators use it. If you got the AOW you got carte blanche to do whatever "recreational" dive they are doing.

 

[Forbin's Descent]

No, you can't, unless the instructor is breaking standards, like yours did.

You are correct. There needs to be a fifth dive. Let's say, Dive Against Debris. I can do a dive and pick up some trash in the quarry for my fifth dive then I'm done.

 

[tursiops]

You are correct. There needs to be a fifth dive. Let's say, Dive Against Debris. I can do a dive and pick up some trash in the quarry for my fifth dive then I'm done.

That's not all that is wrong. The nav dive is more than a swim in a straight line, fir example.

 

[johndiver999]

1. If you can't pick up the number between 40, 50 or 70, then such number should not be picked up.
2. So you are telling me that AOW certification should be based on the number of dives? OK, I tend to agree with this.

Your first assertion makes no sense to me. I have advocated for "common sense", which is sometimes hard to come by. How old should your daughter be before you let her go "out" to the mall with a group of friends? 11, 12, 14, 16, 18 ? Hell I don't known, but it is somewhere in there. We are called upon all the time to apply good judgement to all kinds of serious and subjective situations in our daily lives. This is like arguing with a child; making the cut off at 60 feet is reasonable.

AOW certification is GREAT! The quicker the OW course is, the more important the AOW course is. I don't care what we call the second course, but it can be tremendously helpful to a lot of new divers, particularly if they take the course right after the initial one.

Of course, a diver can be a natural and if s/he is smart and does some reading and gets paired up with a very good mentor who is attentive and "good", there may be zero benefit to taking an AOW course other than to be allowed to do a "deeper" dive on a commercial operation.

Most of the people I dive with, I have no idea what certification level they have and I don't ask or care. After a couple of dives, I can ascertain all I need to know (sometimes just watching them set up the gear).

I've seen some scuba instructors that were very, very weak divers who I would not be happy diving with in 40 feet. I used to dive with a guy, from his boat, to depths well past recreational (for years) and then one day he tells me he wants to take an OW certification course... LOL. I had no idea he was self taught and uncertified, who asks somebody this stuff anyway when you are diving from their boat?

That worked out well, we got a padi instructor, he and I first did our normal dive on a wreck to well past 130 first, and on the same day/trip for the next two dives, we put him in with the instructor and they did some "training" dives in 60 feet. The instructor insisted on pulling the float for the drift dives, and she got horribly tangled on ascent, so we had to teach her a little about how drift diving is done. I think she may have signed off with two dives and 5 minutes of snorkeling. Perhaps my buddy should take the AOW course?