Advanced Open Water Disappointment

[Outbound]

No John. No one believes it. You just believe they do.

And this won't be the last time you post this either.

People have to accept the fact that there is are serious shortcomings to some percentage of training. What is this percentage? Who knows? But the anecdotal evidence is an indication that it does exist.

I think most people accept this. After all, when you are talking about a large number of instructors, a large number of shops, and a lot of students, there's bound to be some issues with a certain percentage of them.

However, one of the pervasive attitudes on these boards - at least as it is expressed by a lot of the posters - is that there is a HUGE problem with NEARLY ALL of the training, especially when that training comes from PADI. Just look at what @Forbin's Descent wrote in an earlier post in this thread: "Ha, me and thousands and thousands of other "certified" PADI divers. I will gladly send them their card back if they send me my $450 back. Of course, since these certifications are just made up things with no oversight, fraud is a stretch."

There's a lot of ground between "There's nothing wrong with the certification process as it is" and "All certifications are bullcrap." I hardly ever see anyone take the former stance. I see a lot of people here take the latter, or very close to it.

 

[Forbin's Descent]

However, one of the pervasive attitudes on these boards - at least as it is expressed by a lot of the posters - is that there is a HUGE problem with NEARLY ALL of the training, especially when that training comes from PADI.

There is a HUGE problem. It continues to come up again and again and not just on these boards. It is a regular discussion in dive circles everywhere. The OG of this post, me being new and having a similar training experience and on and on. It goes back how far with how many people? Culminating in the recent death of student during a training dive that was due to poor instruction sanctioned by an agency that certified this person to teach. How many videos of young women sinking to their deaths do we need to see before it is a HUGE problem? Five? One hundred?

And it's not just this industry. I mentioned my WFR (Wilderness First Responder) cert. It is a two week long training to teach people to be medical first responders in the backcountry. It has no oversight. The AMA or nobody oversees it. You and I could start "certifying" WFR's and Divers.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I think most people accept this. After all, when you are talking about a large number of instructors, a large number of shops, and a lot of students, there's bound to be some issues with a certain percentage of them.

Maybe this is an oversimplification, but let's look at open water. If a student spent time on their knees beyond CW1, then their training sucked. I would argue that this is the majoirty of open water instructors across most WRSTC agencies. There are some exceptions like NASE and RAID that require skills to be performed neutrally buoyant and trimmed. However, instructors can still use the crutch and place students on their knees.

If in those open water courses the instructors didn't weight the students properly. I define "weight properly" as the minimal amount of weight required to maintain a safety stop with a nearly empty cylinder, empty BCD/wing, and if applicable a dry suit as empty as possible yet not sacrificing comfort and warmth, and be able to control the remaining ascent (to accomodate neoprene that may increase buoyancy). You never want to cork, even from 5 feet as you could still get run over by a boat.

Also in that definition, if the instructor didn't distribute the weight so the student can hover effortlessly horizontally, then their training sucked.

Now my limited observations doesn't necessarily translate to the entire world, but I would bet 7 figures that I am correct in that the vast majority (90%+) of open water courses fail one or both of these criteria.

I am sure others would disagree.

However, one of the pervasive attitudes on these boards - at least as it is expressed by a lot of the posters - is that there is a HUGE problem with NEARLY ALL of the training, especially when that training comes from PADI. Just look at what @Forbin's Descent wrote in an earlier post in this thread: "Ha, me and thousands and thousands of other "certified" PADI divers. I will gladly send them their card back if they send me my $450 back. Of course, since these certifications are just made up things with no oversight, fraud is a stretch."

See above. For open water, I think 90%+ qualifies as nearly all. But we will never know what percentage meets/doesn't meet my criteria or anyone elses.

Now think about those instructors also teaching con ed. It doesn't present a pretty picture. When I see a platinum CD not being able to stay horizontal without finning, what kind of instructors do you think he churns out in Thailand?

There's a lot of ground between "There's nothing wrong with the certification process as it is" and "All certifications are bullcrap." I hardly ever see anyone take the former stance. I see a lot of people here take the latter, or very close to it.

I think most con ed is crap due to the lack of value. And I think that is where a lot of the derision stems from that you see here on SB and elsewhere on social media. I think con ed courses have the potential to be meaningful courses that result in an improvement in skills and knowledge. I see the requirements as being fairly pathetic. Real value is from agencies that allow instructors to augment their courses (only a few do) and where instructors take that opportunity to ensure there is real value (most don't).

I think for myself, if I were to do things over again, I'd have taken OW, then GUE fundies and keep working till I get a tech pass, then T1, and that's it. While GUE courses are expensive in terms of time and money, they have great value. 3 courses that would cover the diving that 95% of the diver population would ever do. T1 would replace the need for AOW. And if a dive center wouldn't accept T1 over AOW, would you really want to dive with such morons?

This doesn't mean that instructors cannot provide valuable courses who don't teach for GUE or similar. I don't teach for GUE and never will. But I do strive to provide value and constantly look for ways to increase that value. Fortunately, I am in an agency that allows this. Though I'd rather that agency raise their minimum standards.

I wouldn't say fraud is a stretch. As agencies know that they have crap instructors/dive centers and they look the other way for the revenue stream. Agency HQs really have to have their head up their αsses if they think everything is honky dory. So the fraud accusation isn't entirely unfair.

 

[pauldw]

I mentioned my WFR (Wilderness First Responder) cert.

Was it NOLS?

 

[Forbin's Descent]

Was it NOLS?

Mine was with Solo

 

[Outbound]

@wetb4igetinthewater I didn't want to hit the reply button and quote your whole post since it was on the longer side.

I would disagree with saying that training students on their knees means their training sucks. It's not optimal, for sure, and I wish that all instructors would move away from it. I also think the drive to overweight students simply to get them down so that the class can move on is problematic. In fact, I think this is worse than teaching on the knees. You can get a newly trained diver from knees to proper trim relatively easily, but that becomes much more difficult if they are overweighted and it is never explained to them that they they are likely overweighed and should be doing proper weight checks as they advance and get more experience and comfort in the water.

I think your 90% stat is too high, but I understand the point you are trying to make. But again, I don't think it means the rest of the training sucks. There's a lot more to learning to dive than just proper trim and proper weighting. For example, I'd much rather have a new diver who is comfortable with mask clearing skills and regulator replace and clear who has crap trim than one who learned neutral and horizontal but freaks out at the thought of having a flooded mask yet somehow passed that skill.

I'm not disagreeing with you that a much better job can be done when it comes to training new divers. And I agree 100% that neutrally buoyant, horizontal trimmed, and properly weighted is fundamental and should be done from the start. But not doing it that way doesn't automatically disqualify the rest of the training, nor does it mean that most certs are garbage, that it's just a money grab (I know you didn't say that, but it's the sentiment of a lot of folks here), etc.

Continuing ed certs can be a mixed bag. Some are definitely worth it, with the natural caveat that it requires proper instruction. Nitrox, for example. Rescue. Emergency O2 provider is good to have. Dry suit. Maybe Night for those who have some trepidation about venturing out in the dark. Others might be of limited value even with great instruction. PPB has pretty low standards, admittedly. Some I definitely chuckle at (Boat Diver comes to mind), and some I think are definitely a cash grab. But I accept that diving is, overall, a for-profit venture and people need to make a living.

In short, some dive training is excellent. Some dive training sucks. A lot of it is somewhere in-between. Some certs are good. Some certs are silly. A lot of them have some value to some degree. There's a lot that can be done to clean up the training and make it stronger, but I think it goes too far to say that 90% of dive training sucks.

 

[Forbin's Descent]

I think most con ed is crap due to the lack of value. And I think that is where a lot of the derision stems from that you see here on SB and elsewhere on social media. I think con ed courses have the potential to be meaningful courses that result in an improvement in skills and knowledge.

It is definitely where the frustrations come in for me as a newb diver. We get sold on this stuff trusting this instructor that is certified by this huge agency and then go to the quarry do the dives and are like what the hell did I just pay for? I may be an outlier though as I had the goal to cave dive and have tons of water and other adventure sports experience. I wasn't looking to learn to spend the morning kicking some coral off the reef and then spend the rest of the afternoon drinking margaritas. Maybe I was culpable due to my expectations. As the saying goes: expectations are just premeditated resentments.

I am all for continual education and plan to continue mine with properly vetted instructors.

 

[happy-diver]

All dive training is magnificent, it gets you in the water an interesting place many shouldn't be
If you chose to learn more use your brain without having to be led by the hand or get out, see

"Everyone's a critic."

Everybody’s a Critic. And That’s How It Should Be. (Published 2016)

To be a critic is to be a defender of the life of art and a champion of the art of living.

www.nytimes.com

 

[johndiver999]

@wetb4igetinthewater I didn't want to hit the reply button and quote your whole post since it was on the longer side.

I would disagree with saying that training students on their knees means their training sucks. It's not optimal, for sure, and I wish that all instructors would move away from it. I also think the drive to overweight students simply to get them down so that the class can move on is problematic. In fact, I think this is worse than teaching on the knees. You can get a newly trained diver from knees to proper trim relatively easily, but that becomes much more difficult if they are overweighted and it is never explained to them that they they are likely overweighed and should be doing proper weight checks as they advance and get more experience and comfort in the water.

I think your 90% stat is too high, but I understand the point you are trying to make. But again, I don't think it means the rest of the training sucks. There's a lot more to learning to dive than just proper trim and proper weighting. For example, I'd much rather have a new diver who is comfortable with mask clearing skills and regulator replace and clear who has crap trim than one who learned neutral and horizontal but freaks out at the thought of having a flooded mask yet somehow passed that skill.

I'm no expert on training, and I am most certainly not one of these trim Nazi's; but if/when someone has attained perfect trim and neutral buoyancy control, I think it is very unlikely that they haven't figured out how to clear their mask and are on the verge of bolting.

In my experience, people who are uncomfortable (and potentially prone to bolting) are going to be holding their second stage in one hand and maybe their inflator in the other and if not they are paddling with their hands (and maybe a little bicycle kicking too).. Those are all my signs for imminent problems, Not perfectly controlled position in the water with arms in a relaxed and still configuration.

 

[Celt]

What’s wrong with paddling with your hands? Where did the BS that you shouldn’t paddle with your hands come from? I use every means available to me to negotiate my way through a wreck or through a gap as smoothly as I can and if that means paddling with my hands then that’s the way it should be. Maybe some are so fixed in their ways they think everything else is wrong.