Advanced Open Water Disappointment

[DeepSeaExplorer]

In my experience as a student, it's common for there to be (1) an instructor and (2) an assistant instructor. The assistant instructor does help the main instructor, but presumably is also there to learn and gain some hands-on experience leading to them becoming more confident and able to lead classes themselves.

This is the way...

A DM should have an instructor sign-off as having helped with X number of classes. Then, go straight to a 2-day Instructor Evaluation. The whole traveling somewhere to attend a 10-day IDC doesn’t produce the best instructors.

 

[Twiny]

True in part. Without a doubt, regardless of the agency, the instructor will make the most difference.

However, AOW in the PADI world is not the same thing as AOW in SSI world. The SSI equivalent to PADI AOW is Advanced Adventurer. SSI AOW is not a sampler. It's not even a course. It's a recognition of completing 4 specialties. Which one is better will depend on which specialties. If the specialties are the same, there is potential for the SSI route being more thorough as they are complete specialties.

But agreed, a good instructor will make the biggest difference.

Sorry but this is just playing with words and plastic cards : the equivalent of the PADI Advance Open Water course is actually Advanced Adventurer with SSI and both courses are totally identical. The instructor only will make a difference.
Then with a minimum of dives comes with SSI the rating Advanced diver but it is not a course just an additional card ...

 

[Belzelbub]

Sorry but this is just playing with words and plastic cards : the equivalent of the PADI Advance Open Water course is actually Advanced Adventurer with SSI and both courses are totally identical. The instructor only will make a difference.

That’s what I said. PADI AOW and SSI AOW are not equivalent. PADI AOW and SSI AA are.

 

[VikingDives]

I pick up a lot of new students after OW. There are a few divers who pretty routinely drag folks over to me that want to dive well/often, but look terrible in the water. Unfortunately, most of the students locally are complete disasters when they graduate OW - no buoyancy control, overweighted etc.

Regardless of the class, if I haven't taught them before, their first dive is going to be a buoyancy dive/checkout dive or pool session. That comes before the 5 required dives. It allows me to assess their current level of diving and identify what needs improvement. This also allows us to continue to work on buoyancy, trim, back kick, frog kick etc. during the remainder of the course.

I don't expect my students to look like they could get a GUE tech pass at the end of their first course, but I do expect they will know what they need to do to improve their diving. I'd like them all to know how to kick (frog, back, modified flutter). In an advanced course, there's sufficient time to teach those things, and to get them practicing, but they aren't going to look like someone who's gone through OW with me, as there just isn't sufficient time to practice, usually.

If it's your first class with me, I view the advanced course as a buoyancy, trim, and propulsion primer. We're going to do all the requirements, you'll get a sample of some skills and techniques that will make you a better diver. If an instructor is just checking boxes, then there probably isn't going to be much value in the training.

Also, advanced is one course that I believe SDI has better requirements for, thus leading to a better course. When I taught for PADI most of the dives in AOW, were under indirect supervision. In other words, you could go do the dive on your own and I could stay at the surface. SDI requires that an instructor be in the water for each dive. You can give constructive criticism on things you don't observe...

 

[tursiops]

I pick up a lot of new students after OW. There are a few divers who pretty routinely drag folks over to me that want to dive well/often, but look terrible in the water. Unfortunately, most of the students locally are complete disasters when they graduate OW - no buoyancy control, overweighted etc.

Regardless of the class, if I haven't taught them before, their first dive is going to be a buoyancy dive/checkout dive or pool session. That comes before the 5 required dives. It allows me to assess their current level of diving and identify what needs improvement. This also allows us to continue to work on buoyancy, trim, back kick, frog kick etc. during the remainder of the course.

I don't expect my students to look like they could get a GUE tech pass at the end of their first course, but I do expect they will know what they need to do to improve their diving. I'd like them all to know how to kick (frog, back, modified flutter). In an advanced course, there's sufficient time to teach those things, and to get them practicing, but they aren't going to look like someone who's gone through OW with me, as there just isn't sufficient time to practice, usually.

If it's your first class with me, I view the advanced course as a buoyancy, trim, and propulsion primer. We're going to do all the requirements, you'll get a sample of some skills and techniques that will make you a better diver. If an instructor is just checking boxes, then there probably isn't going to be much value in the training.

Also, advanced is one course that I believe SDI has better requirements for, thus leading to a better course. When I taught for PADI most of the dives in AOW, were under indirect supervision. In other words, you could go do the dive on your own and I could stay at the surface. SDI requires that an instructor be in the water for each dive. You can give constructive criticism on things you don't observe...

PADI allows indirect supervison on some dives, but does not require it. I never did indirect supervision except occasionally on Navigation dives #2 and #3, and Self-Reliant #3.

 

[VikingDives]

PADI allows indirect supervison on some dives, but does not require it. I never did indirect supervision except occasionally on Navigation dives #2 and #3, and Self-Reliant #3.

True, but my experience is that the PADI instructors I've observed aren't doing more than what's required.

 

[Forbin's Descent]

When I taught for PADI most of the dives in AOW, were under indirect supervision. In other words, you could go do the dive on your own and I could stay at the surface. SDI requires that an instructor be in the water for each dive. You can give constructive criticism on things you don't observe...

Oh wow. I saw my trainer having his newly certified AOW divers taking his AOW students on dives while he focused on his new OW students and thought that was crazy but this actually to standard with PADI. Interesting.

 

[VikingDives]

Oh wow. I saw my trainer having his newly certified AOW divers taking his AOW students on dives while he focused on his new OW students and thought that was crazy but this actually to standard with PADI. Interesting.

For some dives, yes. I'm not a PADI instructor anymore, so I'll leave it to someone who's active to fill in what dives require direct supervision. Deep is the only one that I can recall offhand.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

This indirect supervision is a huge disservice to students. I remember during my IDC being told how I can sit on the beach during a navigation dive with having my students tow milk bottles at the surface.

What the actual F?

Who actually does that? How can an instructor correct students going into the weeds?

I mean, why pay for a class if your instructor isn't with you. I can ask a bystander or my 3 year old if the milk bottle went in a square pattern. I don't need to pay someone to tell me.

I need someone to correct me underwater. Am I staying at a constant depth? And I turning the correct amount? Do I need any correction? And what if I have an emergency? Do I cork so my instructor then has to kit up and then get me? Or is my fellow student supposed to rescue me.

The fact that indirect supervision is allowed by standards at any time says something truly horrible about those standards.

This is not a funny joke. We instructors have a responsibility at a bare minimum to ensure our students are always safe. It is call duty of care. Indirect supervision contradicts this responsibility. Again, this responsibility is bare minimum.

 

[Edward3c]

This indirect supervision is a huge disservice to students. I remember during my IDC being told how I can sit on the beach during a navigation dive with having my students tow milk bottles at the surface.
.

I was teaching compass last night. How would I have demonstrated, and correct, how to sight the compass is not in the water with the student. And confirm they did hit the targets within the accuracy required.