Accident at Cave Excursions

[Rick Murchison]

LET IT BE KNOWN! If the O2 sticker is a forgery the owner goes to jail . And I'm not talking about Bill I'm talking about the tank OWNER

Ok, let's ask the other side of the question... what constitutes a legitimate oxygen sticker? Who prints them? Who may buy them? Who may put them on a tank? Who sets the standard?
I believe you're going to find that there is no such thing as a "forged" oxygen sticker, because there is no standard to define "legitimate" - indeed, if you look at medical oxygen cylinders the markings are as often as not a simple stenciled "OXYGEN" on the side of the tank.
If a cylinder is labled "Oxygen Clean" and it isn't, that's another matter entirely, and there may be liability (to say nothing of Darwin) issues then. But the nature of the label itself is a non-issue, liability-wise.
Rick

 

[novadiver]

This accident has had enough rampant and nasty speculation. Do you have ANY reason to raise questions about the sticker or to suggest the police are investigating it?

An investigation is needed to protect all of us. Lets find out what happened and then flame me, I can take it. I own aluminum deco tanks.(not luxfer) . I can't tell by the picture but the inside of the tank looks BLACK (carbon deposit). I'm not trying to start anything, But I would like to know the answer before I drop a tank off my truck by accident

 

[Curt Bowen]

I'm 40 and I've been diving for 27 years, the sticker I refer to is the O2 clean sticker, and that is the legal liability part of the tank ( DOT REGULATIONS) It's not the MOD sticker, Lets see what the police say before you burn me again

The sticker is a large Oxygen sticker that was pruchased at a local dive shop and it has zero to do with the failure of the cylinder. All it does is identify what the contents of the cylinder. Plus the O2 clean sticker was also in date and also provided by a dive shop, not the DOT.

It is not the correct DOT sticker that is required for all commercial gas cylinders. it was not a commercial cylinder

 

[novadiver]

The sticker is a large Oxygen sticker that was pruchased at a local dive shop and it has zero to do with the failure of the cylinder. All it does is identify what the contents of the cylinder. Plus the O2 clean sticker was also in date and also provided by a dive shop, not the DOT.

It is not the correct DOT sticker that is required for all commercial gas cylinders. it was not a commercial cylinder

The sticker in question is the O2 CLEAN sticker,Was it put on by a dive shop or was it forged, It costs money to clean a tank, and money is the root of all evil.

I don't know, Nor do you! but an investigation is in order.

How many alum. tanks do you own.How many with 100 persent o2 do you want to drop!

 

[SmokeAire]

Ah did some replies just disappear? There were 73 replies now there are only 56.

Never mind..just found the other replies.

 

[rjchandler]

The sticker in question is the O2 CLEAN sticker,Was it put on by a dive shop or was it forged, It costs money to clean a tank, and money is the root of all evil.

I don't know, Nor do you! but an investigation is in order.

How many alum. tanks do you own.How many with 100 persent o2 do you want to drop!

If we buy you a horse, will you ride to Boston yelling "the british are coming"? Don't forget that the owner of the tank and a couple other divers were seriously injured. Why are you questioning their integrity?

 

[The Chairman]

Novadiver...

I would be amazed if Curt did not own many, many more cylinders than you and I put together. I just wouldn't go there if I were you.

The point is, that you made a pretty bold, yet highly inaccurate statement. That you don't quite understand how or why it's inaccurate is a good indication that you should be asking more questions than making these types of statements.

Taking a PSI tank inspection class would be a great start. Or possibly doing a search on O2 cleaning would get you going in the right direction.

Aluminum that is subjected to high heat and oxygen is going to discolor... no matter what was in it to begin with. That's the nature of a flash fire.

An Oxygen Clean sticker only means that the cylinder was clean at the time it was affixed. There is no way for the cleaner/inspector to assume liability for any subsequent contamination. To date, there is NO FORMAL certification required for tank inspectors or those so inclined to O2 clean tanks. IMHO, this is a HUGE problem in our industry. I do believe that Bill High's PSI does an excellent job of training inspectors and wish that more LDSes would avail themselves of his agency rather than relying on "in-house" methods of training.

IOW, I know for a fact that I inspect and clean my cylinders more thouroughly than any LDS that I associate with. My O2 clean sticker MEANS something. But even then all it takes is one fill from a contaminated source to undo my very best efforts. Go figure.

 

[novadiver]

Novadiver...

I would be amazed if Curt did not own many, many more cylinders than you and I put together. I just wouldn't go there if I were you.

The point is, that you made a pretty bold, yet highly inaccurate statement. That you don't quite understand how or why it's inaccurate is a good indication that you should be asking more questions than making these types of statements.

Taking a PSI tank inspection class would be a great start. Or possibly doing a search on O2 cleaning would get you going in the right direction.

Aluminum that is subjected to high heat and oxygen is going to discolor... no matter what was in it to begin with. That's the nature of a flash fire.

An Oxygen Clean sticker only means that the cylinder was clean at the time it was affixed. There is no way for the cleaner/inspector to assume liability for any subsequent contamination. To date, there is NO FORMAL certification required for tank inspectors or those so inclined to O2 clean tanks. IMHO, this is a HUGE problem in our industry. I do believe that Bill High's PSI does an excellent job of training inspectors and wish that more LDSes would avail themselves of his agency rather than relying on "in-house" methods of training.

IOW, I know for a fact that I inspect and clean my cylinders more thouroughly than any LDS that I associate with. My O2 clean sticker MEANS something. But even then all it takes is one fill from a contaminated source to undo my very best efforts. Go figure.

the only integrity I have called in question is the integrityof the O2 clean sticker. If I'm wrong than I'll pm everyone I offended, and tell them I was WRONG!But untill then If my O2 starts rolling I'm going to ground like an incoming 105 shell!!

I'm betting you are too!!

I've said I don't know what happenned and I'd like to see an investigation by the proper authority,

Can you tell me that you know what happened to this tank?

I've stated that I don't want to start something that I can't prove ,but I do want to know the answer.

I'm willing to listen!

 

[scubafool]

Doesn't OSHA or DOT conduct an investigation when a cylinder fails? If so, I would expect that the findings would be made public. I don't know that this is what actually happens, but I am under the impression that such is the case.

 

[The Chairman]

What integrity are you refering to? Maybe I am just plain missing your point.

There is no formal training required to affix an O2 clean sticker. Anyone can do it.

There is no signature or ID required on the same. Anyone can do it.

There is no "official" O2 clean sticker that is produced. You either buy them from a supplier or print your own. Again, anyone can do it.

Affixing a sticker only means that the person doing so attests that the tank was clean at the time applied. Subsequent contamination has little bearing on the initial cleaner/inspector and is impossible to prove/disprove.

Most shops do not re-clean a tank during a visual inspection. Most don't even know how to check for contamination.

By sticking to the "integrity" issue it's plain to most of us that you have no idea how the system really works.