Abyss not a popular "tech" reg...why?

[Akimbo]

I can’t speak for the tech community, but they seem pretty expensive compared to products with as good or better results on simulators.

 

[ianr33]

I hear that whole "can't disassemble the reg underwater" talk a lot. How often does this actually happen?

Done it once,had a buddy do it once. Its a nice option to have.

 

[Greg Barlow]

I can’t speak for the tech community, but they seem pretty expensive compared to products with as good or better results on simulators.

Production costs of a metal second stage far exceed that of a plastic bodied reg. My guess is that it would be at least 300% more.

Greg Barlow

 

[Akimbo]

Production costs of a metal second stage far exceed that of a plastic bodied reg. My guess is that it would be at least 300% more.

Greg Barlow

Granted, but I am not sure a chrome plated brass housing has value over a well designed glass-filled injection molded housing. I have seen two or three metal second stages crushed like tin foil under tanks and tools. I am not saying the plastic housing would necessarily fare better, but you would be dead or damaged if one of those regulators were in you mouth at the time.

Tooling to make plastic second stage housings probably cost around $100K. Unit costs are lower plus weight, repeatability, and corrosion are better — until you get to exotics like Titanium.

 

[hudson]

I wonder if it would just be better to carry a spare 2nd if the risk of silt/sand fouling a deco or stage 2nd was high?

Going with the "tool-less" approach then you'd have to have the hose only hand-tight, which is then o-ring extrusion city.

An idea that should work better is using a breathable fabric as a silt filter.

 

[Greg Barlow]

Tooling to make plastic second stage housings probably cost around $100K. Unit costs are lower plus weight, repeatability, and corrosion are better — until you get to exotics like Titanium.

The $100K cost is not realistic. I have two close friends in the injection molding business. Unless the part has extremely complex features, the price is more in the $5-10K range.

Consider the cost of making a metal second stage...A die for the stamping, brazing the mouthpiece and other "add-ons", plating brass (requires three separate alloys). and final polishing. I bet that in the good ol' USA, you couldn't produce a metal second stage housing for less than $50 per unit. The same part in injection molded polymer would probably run less than$5, excluding the price of the die.

Greg Barlow

 

[Akimbo]

The $100K cost is not realistic. I have two close friends in the injection molding business. Unless the part has extremely complex features, the price is more in the $5-10K range.

In my experience, $10K that would be a decent price for a single cavity low-run mold insert. I would be very surprised if larger companies like AquaLung didn't run something on the order of six cavity molds with sophisticated core extractors and cooling for much faster cycle times. Glass filled plastics also require harder, more expensive, materials for comparable mold life. Most companies also factor in design, liaison, and prototyping for an all-inclusive mold investment. Of course, all this yields far lower part costs when numbers are high enough to amortize mold costs.

Regardless of the number, amortize the mold over 100,000 units world-wide over the life of the product and mold cost is almost irrelevant to large producers. The real money is saved in lower QA costs once the mold run is dialed in.

Consider the cost of making a metal second stage...A die for the stamping, brazing the mouthpiece and other "add-ons", plating brass (requires three separate alloys). and final polishing. I bet that in the good ol' USA, you couldn't produce a metal second stage housing for less than $50 per unit. The same part in injection molded polymer would probably run less than$5, excluding the price of the die.

Greg Barlow

No argument in round numbers. I did not mean to imply that metal parts were less expensive, possibly excluding up-front investments. It is all a question of finished part cost (including QA and rejects), plus amortization. It still comes down to delivering greater value to the customer. I am not sure that metal housings do that anymore.

I have no bias one way or the other regarding the Mares Abyss. It is obviously a fine regulator. My comment related to the relative cost to competing products which deliver equal or better breathing characteristics as a partial explanation regarding their market share.

 

[Greg Barlow]

In my experience, $10K that would be a decent price for a single cavity low-run mold insert. I would be very surprised if larger companies like AquaLung didn't run something on the order of six cavity molds with sophisticated core extractors and cooling for much faster cycle times. Glass filled plastics also require harder, more expensive, materials for comparable mold life. Most companies also factor in design, liaison, and prototyping for an all-inclusive mold investment. Of course, all this yields far lower part costs when numbers are high enough to amortize mold costs.

Regardless of the number, amortize the mold over 100,000 units world-wide over the life of the product and mold cost is almost irrelevant to large producers. The real money is saved in lower QA costs once the mold run is dialed in.


No argument in round numbers. I did not mean to imply that metal parts were less expensive, possibly excluding up-front investments. It is all a question of finished part cost (including QA and rejects), plus amortization. It still comes down to delivering greater value to the customer. I am not sure that metal housings do that anymore.

I have no bias one way or the other regarding the Mares Abyss. It is obviously a fine regulator. My comment related to the relative cost to competing products which deliver equal or better breathing characteristics as a partial explanation regarding their market share.

Great points on the intricate work needed for complex molded parts. It also makes you realize why dive gear manufacturers will use outside vendors to produce their parts. In an industry that is relatively small, it just doesn't make financial sense to do the work "in-house". The two friends that I mentioned make several parts for the automotive industry. These are generally simple items such as dash knobs.

Being a cold water diver, I have a true fondness for metal bodied second stages. Short of a few compounds, such as carbon fiber, few materials can offer their level of thermal conduction.

Great discussion points!

Greg

 

[ams511]

Back to the original question. I believe it has to do with recommendations. If you look at the DIR book the second stages shown are either G-500's or 250's while the first stages seen to be Mk-18's or 20's. This is probably due to the better hose routing for the firsts and the adjustability of the seconds. If you look at the UK gas diving site they recommend either Apeks or ScubaPro (used to recommend Beuchat which used Apeks 2nd's). As another poster mentioned this is due to the ability to be cleared under water. As a rec diver I would never need to remove a faceplate off a reg under water because I do not dive in silty environments and if a reg free flowed I could just surface. Tec divers dive in all sorts of silty environments and when you are in a wreck or a cave you cannot just surface so you need to solve the problems underwater while usually wearing thick gloves. Also you want to be able to swap second stages underwater. Besides the Abyss there are other quality regs tec divers shun because of this reason, even ones made by Scubapro and Apeks.