ABC islands are among the safest of the world

[bqualls]

Vince,
Your "red light" analogy is not appropriate. What the Bonaire cheer leaders , like yourself do --is blame the guy who had the green light for not being a more defensive driver. Sure, we should all be defensive drivers(and protect our valuables the best we can under the circumstances) but we don't always do that, do we? The point is -don't blame the guy with the green light-blame the red light runner and the thief. Bonaire clearly has a crime problem and refuses to come to grips with it because the victims are tourists who will be gone and forgotten by the time a perp. can be caught and prosecuted. Proactive policing is the answer-patroling the high breakin areas and fencing stings would minimize the problem-- but the authorities just don't seem to have the will to do that--after all everyone knows everyone there and toes would get stepped on. anyhow, the tourists can afford it.

 

[fireflock]

Really? Where do you live? Utopia? Munchkinville? So you don't lock your truck? Or you lock your truck with your bulging wallet sitting on the dashboard? Oh, so you take appropriate precautions based on your surroundings. You put your wallet under the seat. You put your extra computer in the glove box. What the hell is the difference between that and leaving your valuables in your hotel room and leaving your truck unlocked when in Bonaire? What is the big deal? My God you make it sound like Bonaire is akin to Baghdad. Its not. It never was. It never will be.

I live within 100 miles of Morehead City and Beaufort NC....Graveyard of the Atlantic, Cape Lookout, and some other names....

Believe it or not, some people leave dive gear on the boat (including things like scooters) unlocked, over night. Sure, I lock the cab of my truck...and I've never had (or heard of) broken windows in the parking lot for the few shore dives we do have. I've left my $800 bike in the back of my truck, unlocked, a number of times. I've left dive gear in the back of the truck (unlocked) more times than I can count while I went to eat, swim at the beach, or do a shore dive .

There is poverty and crime in the county, and I'm sure there is petty theft. The difference is that the tourism groups and the local PD realize that telling people to leave their doors unlocked and windows open will result in tourists going elsewhere. I'm not saying that my stuff will never get stolen, but I'll take my chances here over a place where the locals don't seem to care one way or the other if tourists get ripped off.

 

[DiverVince]

Vince,
Your "red light" analogy is not appropriate. What the Bonaire cheer leaders , like yourself do --is blame the guy who had the green light for not being a more defensive driver. Sure, we should all be defensive drivers(and protect our valuables the best we can under the circumstances) but we don't always do that, do we? The point is -don't blame the guy with the green light-blame the red light runner and the thief. Bonaire clearly has a crime problem and refuses to come to grips with it because the victims are tourists who will be gone and forgotten by the time a perp. can be caught and prosecuted. Proactive policing is the answer-patroling the high breakin areas and fencing stings would minimize the problem-- but the authorities just don't seem to have the will to do that--after all everyone knows everyone there and toes would get stepped on. anyhow, the tourists can afford it.

Well not quite. I've been doing negligence work for 35 years now. In the U.S. there is a concept called comparative negligence or in some states an even more restrictive concept called contributory negligence.

My auto accident scenario was spot on. Depending upon what state has jurisdiction in the red light/green light scenario, the "innocent driver" can theoretically get nothing in a contributory state; perhaps 75%-85% in a mod comparative negligence state depending on the facts etc. So what I indicated in my analogy, was that it takes 2 to have accident. There is negligence on both sides in this scenario.

Negligence can be defined as the failure to exercise the degree of care a reasonable & prudent person would do under the same or similar circumstances, this could be a mission or omission of acts.

If divers adhered to the "leave windows down, no valuables at dive site rule" this petty stuff would disappear. Reasonable & prudent folks on Bonaire adhere to this at dive sites.

This argument is purely for demonstrative purposes to illustrate that there is a degree of negligence on the victim in this scenario. Clearly & unequivocally, the action of breaking into a vehicle is criminal behavior and can never be condoned.

 

[fireflock]

Clearly & unequivocally, the action of breaking into a vehicle is criminal behavior and can never be condoned.

On the other hand, it's quite easy to tolerate as long as the victims are flying home in a few days.

 

[Dive California]

...If divers adhered to the "leave windows down, no valuables at dive site rule" this petty stuff would disappear. ...

Problem is the vehicle break-ins are the petty stuff...and since most divers have been leaving nothing valuable and rolling the windows down. The crooks on Bonaire have graduated to more serious stuff...breaking into rooms...and even home (hotel) invasions.

That's the problem with ignoring the small stuff early on...they soon become more agressive. They should have nipped it in the bud...now they are on their way to a serious problem on Bonaire.

Also, they (the police) may not be able to properly investigate crime...I too use to believe that they (the police) ignored or didn't investigate because of friends or families being involved as many on this board have indicated...however, they just may not be capable of investigating crime, period.

 

[bqualls]

Prof.Vince Prosser,
Only on Bonaire is it negligent to leave the windows up and the doors locked. I have never been to another local where this is so --try argueing to a new jersey jury that leaving the windows up and the doors locked is NOT what a reasonable man would do and thus negligent. I know Bonaire is not N.J. , but that's the point--everything on this issue is upside down on Bonaire because the Bonaire authorities refuse to do what should be done. They should do what any honest society anywhere should do where petty crime is rampant. Not allow the criminals to change the rules such that they are "upside down". I guess in your scenario we also have to stop for green lights too? Maybe we should just dispossess ourselves of all our possessions so that we wouldn't be negligent by having property to steal.
Your original post said nothing about any fault on the part of the driver with the green light--The fact that you have to change your facts just illustrates the weakness of your argument.And yes," theoretically" the guy with the green light could get nothing or reduced damages in your NEW scenario--and theoretically plaintiffs lawyers will flock to the aid of those who run red lights because it might be the green light drivers fault and they just want to see that justice is done. When people say theoretically, they mean' not really". Oh.. I don't log my dives either.

 

[driftwood]

Vince,

We are just having a 'cultural conflict'. I truly believe that your attitude will only result in a continuation of the problem. It has already hurt Bonaire and can only escalate in the future. An article is published naming Bonaire as being safe. There is a howl of protest regarding the problem of petty theft. Might be a step in the right direction for the next article to say there is a crack down on the criminals instead of blowing sunshine up our skirts.

I really do understand Bonaire Talk's policy on crime, best to just censor information and pretend it is all sunshine and lolipops. I am certain that your views on this issue get more acceptance there.

 

[driftwood]

Problem is the vehicle break-ins are the petty stuff...and since most divers have been leaving nothing valuable and rolling the windows down. The crooks on Bonaire have graduated to more serious stuff...breaking into rooms...and even home (hotel) invasions.

That's the problem with ignoring the small stuff early on...they soon become more agressive. They should have nipped it in the bud...now they are on their way to a serious problem on Bonaire.

Also, they (the police) may not be able to properly investigate crime...I too use to believe that they (the police) ignored or didn't investigate because of friends or families being involved as many on this board have indicated...however, they just may not be capable of investigating crime, period.

This thread from '08 backs up some of your points,
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/abc-islands/254160-kidnapping-bonaire.html

 

[DiverVince]

Well interesting that we all have differences of opinions on how Bonaire should handle this issue. We know who's at fault & who's not. An open and free exchange of ideas as they say.

I sincerely believe it would be much more productive to use all this "knowledge" and passion to fix up our own system of jurisprudence in the U.S. From my unique perspective our system in the U.S. is FAR from ideal. But after all, we Americans know better than the folks on Bonaire don't we? Just my personal observation that we in the U.S. do indeed have the best government that money can buy. Better believe it.

Let the Bonaireans handle their own issues and problems in their own way. It's apparent to me we have enough to deal with "back home" (which is why we escape to Bonaire for a vacation).

We all know what proper etiquette is at a dive site. If you do not want to comply, well that's your free choice. Me? I can't wait to get back for 2 weeks in Aug to dive into the sheet of glass called the ocean at that time, leaving my smelly t shirt, & well worn sandals in my vehicle (naturally with all the windows down).

 

[BDSC]

We all know what proper etiquette is at a dive site. If you do not want to comply, well that's your free choice.

Vince, I have to go along with you on this whole Bonaire thing. I have been to Bonaire 8 times I think it is and not one time in all those trips have I ever had anything stolen from our vehicle. (or room for that matter) Why? Cause there is never anything worth taking. I was told on our very first visit about leaving your vehicle doors unlocked and windows down or cracked. The process has worked perfectly. I usually leave behind an old pair of sunglasses, a t-shirt, flip-flops, a towel, and some water/snacks. Anything of real value (scuba equipment) is in the water. If anyone is dumb enough to leave, for example, a $200 pair of Oakley sunglasses on the dash and it's gone when you get back, then don't cry about it. Your stupidity contributed to half the problem.

Maybe because it's never happend to me but I don't see Bonaire with a crime "problem" at all. I actually think it's way more of a media/internet/scubaboard generated problem. Not only has it not happened to me, but it has never happened to any members of the groups I've been with and I've been with some really big groups. (50+) Thousands of people flock to Bonaire every year to enjoy diving and other water sports and if crime were truly a problem, folks would stop coming.

Petty crime (or even more serious crimes) is everywhere in the world. Bonaire is no different. It's too bad it happens but it does and always will. Even if the local police were to step up patrols and "crack down" on the criminals, it's still going to happen from time to time. I would have to think that if one lived their entire life in Bonaire vs the US, your chances of being a victim of crime would be less in Bonaire.

I will continue to enjoy traveling to Bonaire and if anyone stays away because of a perceived "crime problem" then you are missing out on one of the great dive destinations in the Caribbean. But to be perfectly honest, you won't be missed.

By the way Vince, you have a great looking place and I know exactly where it is. I may just consider your place on my next visit.