a spin off to the dying a hero thread...

[LiteHedded]

well I guess that's that.

 

[Sas]

So for certain IANTD, NAUI and TDI all prohibit instructors turning off a students gas.

Well that is lame.

 

[Blackwood]

yes it is, I spoke with Tom Mount this morning and IANTD standards are that the student is the only one permitted to flood their mask, shut off their gas etc., he commented that it isn't defensible to do any different.

So for certain IANTD, NAUI and TDI all prohibit instructors turning off a students gas.

Interesting. Personally, as a non-litigious student, I don't like the idea that what is indefensible in court plays into how well I'm trained.

 

[cerich]

Interesting. Personally, as a non-litigious student, I don't like the idea that what is indefensible in court plays into how well I'm trained.

honestly I can stress you MORE than enough and have you develop appropriate response while under stress without shutting your gas down, pulling your mask off or cutting your hose...

 

[Blackwood]

honestly I can stress you MORE than enough and have you develop appropriate response while under stress without shutting your gas down, pulling your mask off or cutting your hose...

I'm sure you can, but what if compounded failures were indefensible? Just sucks, but that's the way things are.

 

[rjack321]

What unexpected failures have you had to deal with in your training? What stressful scenarios? I have asked a number of times, given you have been critical of turning off a student's air.

I am full cave with GUE and normoxic trimix with NAUI. I have been put in a few stressful situations. Shooting a bag while timing stops and guiding a maskless OOA diver on ascent was stressful at the time (6 yrs ago. Funny cause I wasn't the one OOA).

Shutting off student's gas is not only against standards for IANTD, NAUI, TDI, and GUE but it unnecessarily maximizes risk & liability while minimizes teaching and learning effective responses.

I don't think I've put words in your mouth Sas, you've said quite clearly that students should be suddenly stressed so they "learn" not to panic. Shutting off their gas potentially accomplishes the former but misses the latter. Wise instructors have already figured out that is not necessary or useful.

 

[Sas]

I am full cave with GUE and normoxic trimix with NAUI. I have been put in a few stressful situations. Shooting a bag while timing stops and guiding a maskless OOA diver on ascent was stressful at the time (6 yrs ago. Funny cause I wasn't the one OOA).

Well I agree that those kinds of things are somewhat stressful but I have found those situations to not be in any way comparable to being without air myself, which is immediately physically stressful. If I can breathe, everything is much much easier to deal with. If I cannot breathe, then this has to be fixed asap or I do not have very long at all before I will start to think less rationally.

Shutting off student's gas is not only against standards for IANTD, NAUI, TDI, and GUE but it unnecessarily maximizes risk & liability while minimizes teaching and learning effective responses.

I have had instructors do things to me that were against standards... but I couldn't care less, as I have learned from these exercises. I have done BSAC training in a hog rig, which is against BSAC standards... do you think that because it was against standards that there is a problem with this?

I do not agree, as I have stated a number of times, that it minimises teaching and learning. You have not experienced such training, so I am not sure how you can comment on its effectiveness.

I don't think I've put words in your mouth Sas, you've said quite clearly that students should be suddenly stressed so they "learn" not to panic. Shutting off their gas potentially accomplishes the former but misses the latter. Wise instructors have already figured out that is not necessary or useful.

No, it is not about learning not to panic. People deal with stressful situations or they do not. It is important to find this out in training, rather than in a real situation.

Again, you have not had instruction that has used this method. So again, I am not sure how you can state that it is not "necessary or useful.".

I have found it immensely useful and I have actually experienced this type of training.

 

[Blackwood]

I have found it immensely useful and I have actually experienced this type of training.

Can I ask what you learned from having you instructor turn off your gas that you didn't learn by being put through a scenario in which you turned off your own gas or were otherwise left without anything to breathe?

 

[peterbj7]

OK, I think we're talking semantics. I have been in situations where I knew the way through and knew I could make it if I kept my head and did everything my training had taught me. Didn't make it any less stressful though. The word "crisis" is perhaps a bad word to use in this context.

 

[Wormil]

TL;DR: ITT: Op doesn't want to die underwater and thinks OOA sucks; Everyone calls Tom Mount; Spiders invaded Germany; Hookers died in a back alley. Women don't poop.