a spin off to the dying a hero thread...

[rjack321]

Stress, intelligently constructed and applied, builds competence, confidence and capability. Stress, created without thought and without a plan, can destroy all of the above.

Not only that, but having students respond in "survival mode" is exactly the wrong response to be training. Feeling panicked for gas and rushing to get some is farm animal stupid, every and anyone can do it and its not building any proper skill.

Thinking and reacting logically in the face of realistic problems underwater is what needs to be taught.

If someone came along and randomly shut down a right post there are 4 possible choices for the student:

1. scream and shout and run about.
2. signal OOA to buddy.
3. switch to backup.
4. reach back and turn the right post on.

Some of these are not intended outcomes although they may demonstrate calm under stress. The intent of this "failure" was only to teach <not> to do #1. Negative training is known to be counterproductive in humans as well as in animals. There are piles of learning theory research documenting this. So the random shutting off of the valve has taught to avoid something (panic) but it has not necessarily taught to "do" anything useful.

 

[Wormil]

Where's Jax to chime in? Oh oracle, I consult thee.

 

[Sas]

I think avoiding panic is a pretty useful thing to be taught rjack.

And if anyone gets deprived of gas for a decent amount of time, they will start to struggle. Anyone who thinks otherwise, really needs to be put in that situation.

 

[Blackwood]

I think avoiding panic is a pretty useful thing to be taught rjack.

And if anyone gets deprived of gas for a decent amount of time, they will start to struggle. Anyone who thinks otherwise, really needs to be put in that situation.

We've come 360º (actually probably more like 1800° by now, but I'm not going to go back and count). It's not instructor-turns-off-gas OR you-never-experience-OOG." It's whether instructor-turns-off-gas is a helpful, productive, instructive means to get you to experience OOG.

 

[Wormil]

We've come 360º (actually probably more like 1800° by now, but I'm not going to go back and count). It's not instructor-turns-off-gas OR you-never-experience-OOG." It's whether instructor-turns-off-gas is a helpful, productive, instructive means to get you to experience OOG.

I think the real question here is, How sexy is wormil, and when can you start paying to see the sexiness?

The answers are : ZOMG HOT & RIGHT NOW!!

 

[TSandM]

In answer to the standards question, about at least one agency:

"GUE instructors are prohibited from turning off student cylinder valves (right, left or isolator), except in the event of a real regulator or manifold failure where turning off the relevant valve would be required."

If you show up to a course like this, with five dives in doubles, then I think tough luck, you deal with what the course expects (as it appears the OP has done).

I think you are completely wrong. The job of an instructor is to TEACH -- in whatever endeavor, one should come away from a class knowing more and being capable of more than one was when one came into it. A good instructor should, if at all possible, do some pre-evaluation to ensure that students are properly prepared for the class. But having a preset sequence of procedures, and running through them despite the fact that a student is clearly not ready for that level of performance, is doing the student no favors at all. If there are other people in the class who would be unfairly impacted by the remedial student's incapacity, then that student should be counseled OUT of the class and told to return at a later date. Otherwise, I think it is a moral obligation of an instructor to find the level at which the student can LEARN. Learning is constructive. Failing is sometimes constructive (and this is often dependent on how the instructor addresses the failure in the debrief), but at some point, becomes deleterious to confidence and motivation.

Remember, this is a RECREATIONAL activity! Yes, standards for performance should be high when you get into technical or overhead diving. But if the instructor's attitude is that it's not his job to teach, but just to test, the student is not getting his money's worth.

 

[rjack321]

I think avoiding panic is a pretty useful thing to be taught rjack.

And if anyone gets deprived of gas for a decent amount of time, they will start to struggle. Anyone who thinks otherwise, really needs to be put in that situation.

Ah yes struggling. That is quite a refined skill. People die because they haven't learnt how to struggle properly.

Ummm maybe not. People die because they rush and fail to stop and think before acting.

 

[Sas]

I think you are completely wrong. The job of an instructor is to TEACH -- in whatever endeavor, one should come away from a class knowing more and being capable of more than one was when one came into it. A good instructor should, if at all possible, do some pre-evaluation to ensure that students are properly prepared for the class.
But having a preset sequence of procedures, and running through them despite the fact that a student is clearly not ready for that level of performance, is doing the student no favors at all. If there are other people in the class who would be unfairly impacted by the remedial student's incapacity, then that student should be counseled OUT of the class and told to return at a later date. Otherwise, I think it is a moral obligation of an instructor to find the level at which the student can LEARN. Learning is constructive. Failing is sometimes constructive (and this is often dependent on how the instructor addresses the failure in the debrief), but at some point, becomes deleterious to confidence and motivation.

Remember, this is a RECREATIONAL activity! Yes, standards for performance should be high when you get into technical or overhead diving. But if the instructor's attitude is that it's not his job to teach, but just to test, the student is not getting his money's worth.

Well I would consider a good instructor to be one that would assess skill before a course and not push a student too far. Not knowing the instructor in question or their side of the story, I am not going to suggest that they are bad, however, or that the OP look for a new one (as per one of the main comments I responded to).

Ah yes struggling. That is quite a refined skill. People die because they haven't learnt how to struggle properly.

That is not what I am saying at all. You are assigning meaning to my words that I have not intended.

Ummm maybe not. People die because they rush and fail to stop and think before acting.

I am saying people should know how they deal with stressful situations. Training can help people deal with stress such as stopping and thinking before acting. Stress testing should be part of dive training because of this.

Note that, if you are without air, you have little time in which to stop and think.

What unexpected failures have you had to deal with in your training? What stressful scenarios? I have asked a number of times, given you have been critical of turning off a student's air.

 

[cerich]

I presume you don't know him. I have done several courses with him as his student, including instructor-level courses.

You say "survived it" as if that was a miracle. My various courses built up to this sort of stage gradually, and far from just "surviving" it I took it in my stride and barely noticed it. Which was the object of the training - to make the student so prepared for the unthinkable that it is barely a surprise to him.

I know Tom well enough to call him on his cell this morning. I read him your posts on your IANTD training and his supposed waivers and his comments were "that is completed BS"

If you need his cell number you can PM me.

 

[cerich]

is it against IANTD standards as has been suggested?

yes it is, I spoke with Tom Mount this morning and IANTD standards are that the student is the only one permitted to flood their mask, shut off their gas etc., he commented that it isn't defensible to do any different.

So for certain IANTD, NAUI and TDI all prohibit instructors turning off a students gas.