A question of etiquette

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Just as a matter of information you all know that the transponders used for this Air Integrated computers use technology that is not exclusive to divers.
The signal in this case travels a very short path, water and specially salt water is a wonderful conductor.

Salt water is a fine conductor but what does that have to do with radio?
 
I don't argue the extended path to failure, but that argument of "Hi-tech = Hi failure" doesn't entirely hold up with me.

I don't know. LOL, I currently own two late model autombiles with the check engine lights on and no one seems able to fix them. Regardless of how reliable "hi-tech" is or isn't, it's harder to support.
Otherwise the Air Force would still be flying with cable controls and M1A1 Abrams would be using mechanical sights. And I can tell you that both situations are significantly critical in nature also.

Note one big difference here. Running optical and balistic data through a computer helps to resolve trojectories and better hit the target. It has a purpose.

In contrast, air integrated dive computers don't do any useful processing on the air pressure data. There is no purpose or value in running that data through a computer at all. You're just adding "hi-tech" complications to a low-tech problem...all you need is a raw number and a mechanical SPG does a fine job of getting you that number...no batteries, radio transmitters/receivers, microprocessors, software/firmware or smt required.
 
Salt water is a fine conductor but what does that have to do with radio?

Salt water conducts electricity too well to allow radio waves to propagate
without severe losses. Typically radio waves will only penetrate the ocean
by about a wavelength. Since wavelength = speed / frequency,
the corresponding wavelengths can be long enough to get penetration to
useful distances for communication in salt water.

science.ca View question
 
I don't know. LOL, I currently own two late model autombiles with the check engine lights on and no one seems able to fix them. Regardless of how reliable "hi-tech" is or isn't, it's harder to support.

Note one big difference here. Running optical and balistic data through a computer helps to resolve trojectories and better hit the target. It has a purpose.

In contrast, air integrated dive computers don't do any useful processing on the air pressure data. There is no purpose or value in running that data through a computer at all. You're just adding "hi-tech" complications to a low-tech problem...all you need is a raw number and a mechanical SPG does a fine job of getting you that number...no batteries, radio transmitters/receivers, microprocessors, software/firmware or smt required.

Right, you are adding hi-tech to low-tech. But a number of years ago, a reserve on a valve was considered was considered adaquate and that there was no need for a SPG. It was considered by many to be a luxury. When I got mine, I thought how cool to be able to just look down and see my actual tank pressure. So, today I can glance down a slight distance and see the computer display in a mask, and see everything that I may need to know. No more reaching and unclipping an SPG to see. I know that is no big deal, but then neither was flipping that reserve. Technology is good, emkay.
 
No? Forgetting about humanitarian concerns and other fuzzy crap, do you have any idea what an Air Force pilot or an F-22 costs?

A lot. But ultimately they're worthless if they don't provide military superiority over a potential enemy. If the increase in superiority provided by a technology exceeds the problems caused by any extra unreliability introduced than it is a good choice for the Air Force. By contrast, a plane that's exceedingly reliable right up to the point where it gets shot out of the sky is not much use.

This is not the case in SCUBA diving. In SCUBA I'm willing to forego the extra convenience of technology for better reliability because my main objective is to come back from every dive alive and well.
 
This is not the case in SCUBA diving. In SCUBA I'm willing to forego the extra convenience of technology for better reliability because my main objective is to come back from every dive alive and well.
I'm with you there, but face it, few dives really "threaten" your life. On most dives a little extra convenience adds to the quality of some peoples' experience.
 
Right, you are adding hi-tech to low-tech. But a number of years ago, a reserve on a valve was considered was considered adaquate and that there was no need for a SPG. It was considered by many to be a luxury. When I got mine, I thought how cool to be able to just look down and see my actual tank pressure. So, today I can glance down a slight distance and see the computer display in a mask, and see everything that I may need to know. No more reaching and unclipping an SPG to see. I know that is no big deal, but then neither was flipping that reserve. Technology is good, emkay.

Sort of. flipping a valve when it gets hard to breath was and still is enough function for some dive situations. I would not consider it adequate for many other dives like overheads (real or virtual) where significan't gas reserves may be required. Additional function is more than a convenience, it really is required. An SPG meets that requirement but an air integrated computer doesn't add anything....Oh, I forgot, the "convenience" of the computer heads up display (or whatever)...right but then there are the stage bottles, decompression bottles, inedependant twins or "sidemounts" ect. Doesn't do you much good there does it?

At least in regards to open circuit diving, the hi-tech solution (the air integrated computers) are only suitable for the low-tech dives. It's a pretty toy. Nothing wrong with buying and using pretty toys if you like them but that's all they are.
 
At least in regards to open circuit diving, the hi-tech solution (the air integrated computers) are only suitable for the low-tech dives. It's a pretty toy. Nothing wrong with buying and using pretty toys if you like them but that's all they are.

My point was that just a few years ago your SPG was just a pretty toy. No one required it. I believe cavers of the time would reverse the reserve on the tank so that it wouldn't accidently get flipped if they bumped the overhead. AS for being pretty toys? You may be right, but that pretty toy today may just be a required piece of equipment tomorrow.
 
My point was that just a few years ago your SPG was just a pretty toy. No one required it. I believe cavers of the time would reverse the reserve on the tank so that it wouldn't accidently get flipped if they bumped the overhead. AS for being pretty toys? You may be right, but that pretty toy today may just be a required piece of equipment tomorrow.

You also have to remember that in the early days a lot of cavers died. So much so that there were attempts to ban cave diving. It took pioneers like Sheck Exley and later the WKPP to develop the procedures and standards which could make cave diving at least relatively safe. These standards include SPGs on all tanks because if there is less gas than you thought in a tank you need to know it as early as possible.
 
My point was that just a few years ago your SPG was just a pretty toy. No one required it. I believe cavers of the time would reverse the reserve on the tank so that it wouldn't accidently get flipped if they bumped the overhead. AS for being pretty toys? You may be right, but that pretty toy today may just be a required piece of equipment tomorrow.

Cavers of the time and some of their "work arounds" are credited (by at least some sources) as having directly led to quite a few inovations...like the alternate air source, bc, manifolds and who knows what else?

I guess my point is that while some of this development was for the purpose of solving a problem, there are other inovations that came about for other reasons...like the tourist divers love of pretty toys or sense of style.

Not to say that there is anything wrong with that...if you like it buy it and use it. It's all in fun, right? However when it's asked how to best incorporate an air integrated computer into a "Hogarthian" equipment confiduration, I have to ask why one would want to. LOL it's like asking if you have to wear a backup on a necklace even if you have an air2.

BTW, as I understand the story, the equipment configuration we refer to as "Hogarthian" was named after Bill Hogarth Main primarily as a joke but the name stuck. I don't know him personally but last I heard he is still an active diver around Florida cave country and I'll bet he gets a real kick out of some of these conversations if he reads them. Just as another FYI, if you look through some of the old threads over on the decostop you'll find some posts by Main, English, Gavin, Mount and a couple of others.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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