A different take on Master Scuba Diver

[BlueTrin]

I think usually the criticism is that some shops will not even attempt to teach any trim at all, not that they don’t teach perfect trim.

This is debated all the time here and don’t want to beat a dead horse that has been resurrected quite a few times . But usually some will say that the agency has responsibility for enforcing some minimum standards and shouldn’t keep instructors that don’t meet them, some others will say that it is up to the agency and students should choose their instructors wisely.

Part of the issue is that you won’t know what you won’t know yet: I wouldn’t have been able to choose a good instructor for my OW and I went with the largest shops in the London area who certify you for a fairly cheap price. They have good reviews and they just tick the boxes and sign you off even if you’ll be totally vertical and almost walking on the ground.

I have seen both largest London shops teach students on their knees and they taught me on my knees as well in the quarry.

I would have chosen another shop if I knew what I knew now but also I think not everyone is like me and when a colleague ask me how he can just learn scuba and have a bit of fun, I always tell them to look for a decently reviewed PADI/SSI shop, maybe to do a DSD just to be sure they like it and go for it. I find it fantastic that someone can get certified so quickly and experience scuba!

I have higher standards for myself but if someone wants to just experience scuba, as long as he is not walking on corals/sealife and is safe, I am happy for them.

Like you said, as long as they were taught decent basics, they can always improve later (if they want to) and you certainly don’t need perfect trim to experience scuba.

This being said, usually one will find out that actually most skills becomes fairly trivial if you take your time and have solid buoyancy and trim.

 

[The Chairman]

At OW level, it doesn’t matter whether divers have perfect trim or can dive on Nitrox.

This is the real conundrum. To me, the whole crux of OW diving is and has been trim and buoyancy. I first learned to dive without the benefit of a BCD, so it was paramount from the very beginning, especially in the Keys where long spined urchins covered the bottom. It's been my experience that once trim and buoyancy have been achieved, then diving becomes simple and easy, with most solutions becoming intuitive. After a short mask clearing class in waist deep water, trim and buoyancy is the first skill IU teach on scuba. Every skill after is then taught while trim and neutral. It's the basis on which everything else is built. Boy do my students look like seasoned divers when they finish. It doesn't take longer than a kneeling class either.

The first thing I check when teaching students an advanced course is their mastery of this. If they weren't my OW student, I often spent a lot of time just getting them trim and neutral. If open water divers don't flail, then neither should advanced divers. Quite often I would have students want to take a trim buoyancy course. I was more than happy to teach it, but it didn't result in a card. Why? I see it as a remedial course for skills that should have been learned in OW. It's like certifying someone to be a "boat" or "shore" diver. All of that should be a part of OW and needs no further certification. Not sure about certain skills? Not a problem and there's no shame in that. Just hire me as a coach for a day or two. Tell me what you want to learn and we'll go from there. Just don't expect a card for learning remedial skills. I mean, do you really need a card to inflate an SMB at depth? There's at least one agency that offers that. Wow. I guess that's why I didn't teach for them. FWIW, that was a part of my advanced diver course.

Not to mislead you, at one time I too was pissed at instructors who taught on their knees. It upset me that they instilled such a bad habit into their students. A habit that can take a lot to break should I teach additional classes to their students. Yeah, they made me work harder, but then I mellowed. Dive and let dive. Teach and let teach. Post and let post. I came to peace with the mantra: "Not my monkeys and not my circus!" I would see their students diving with the look of near-panic in their eyes and dive on. Yes, I had to rescue a few, but that's on their instructor. I learned not to make a single comment about them on the boat and I'm content to simply set the example.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

This is the real conundrum. To me, the whole crux of OW diving is and has been trim and buoyancy. I first learned to dive without the benefit of a BCD, so it was paramount from the very beginning, especially in the Keys where long spined urchins covered the bottom. It's been my experience that once trim and buoyancy have been achieved, then diving becomes simple and easy, with most solutions becoming intuitive. After a short mask clearing class in waist deep water, trim and buoyancy is the first skill IU teach on scuba. Every skill after is then taught while trim and neutral. It's the basis on which everything else is built. Boy do my students look like seasoned divers when they finish. It doesn't take longer than a kneeling class either.

The first thing I check when teaching students an advanced course is their mastery of this. If they weren't my OW student, I often spent a lot of time just getting them trim and neutral. If open water divers don't flail, then neither should advanced divers. Quite often I would have students want to take a trim buoyancy course. I was more than happy to teach it, but it didn't result in a card. Why? I see it as a remedial course for skills that should have been learned in OW. It's like certifying someone to be a "boat" or "shore" diver. All of that should be a part of OW and needs no further certification. Not sure about certain skills? Not a problem and there's no shame in that. Just hire me as a coach for a day or two. Tell me what you want to learn and we'll go from there. Just don't expect a card for learning remedial skills. I mean, do you really need a card to inflate an SMB at depth? There's at least one agency that offers that. Wow. I guess that's why I didn't teach for them. FWIW, that was a part of my advanced diver course.

Not to mislead you, at one time I too was pissed at instructors who taught on their knees. It upset me that they instilled such a bad habit into their students. A habit that can take a lot to break should I teach additional classes to their students. Yeah, they made me work harder, but then I mellowed. Dive and let dive. Teach and let teach. Post and let post. I came to peace with the mantra: "Not my monkeys and not my circus!" I would see their students diving with the look of near-panic in their eyes and dive on. Yes, I had to rescue a few, but that's on their instructor. I learned not to make a single comment about them on the boat and I'm content to simply set the example.

Pete,

I wasn't sure what the response would be to my previous comment, but it has been interesting to read. I'm not frustrated, I will just point out reality. Some people do not like this. In some cases, I understand this as they are so invested and identify with their respective agency that any discussion where the industry can do better is taken personally. That won't make me shut my mouth.

@Leatherboot69

As you stated, you don't know me or the individuals who took offense. A couple of comments of them taking offense is quite ironic given their own lengthy history. Stick around and you'll see what I mean and you'll say to yourself "why are these guys offended?"

You are 100% correct in the commercial reality. I invite you to read this blog post: An Evaluation of the Modern Scuba Diving Training Industry that does a great job of dividing up the driver demographics, though believe as you go up in the pyramid, the actual sizes are smaller.

The commercial reality is that most (not all) people have the expectation of having a c-card after going through the paces in the course. They feel good about themselves to "earn" this new title. This may be semantics, but the choice of words matter. The industry (not just PADI) uses the term "mastery" defined as the ability to "repeatedly" perform a skill "fluidly" and "comfortably". That is quite different to what you describe. You are describing a diver being capable of performing a skill, but not having mastered it.

Now I'm being accused of agency bashing. I have not singled out any agency. Often you will hear that "it is the instructor, not the agency." And this is true. There are excellent instructors in all agencies. But certain agencies have a higher percentage of crap ones. If you were to select an instructor at random from a objective standards based agency (like the DIR agencies GUE, UTD, ISE or RAID) for a course versus one from a subjective standards based one, with a sufficient sample size, you are going to see dramatically different results in the quality of training. Again, for the person who accused me of agency bashing, there are excellent instructors in all agencies.

The problem lies in the "capable" versus "mastered." There are instructors in all agencies who will make sure that you've mastered a skill, not that you are capable of doing it. I may be mistaken, but absolutely no agency that I am aware of states in its standards that a diver must merely be capable of performing a skill. If an agency is serving a market where "capable" is the final result, then the standards should reflect that. Throw out the use of the word mastered. Have integrity.

I do stand by my statement that instructors, especially CDs/ITs (as they are training new instructors), who feel that ticking off boxes/capable is good enough, should quit teaching.

You might want to read the 2016 DAN report where they discuss changes they'd like to see in training and ask yourself if those are being addressed in the training you seek as you move forward. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK424394/pdf/Bookshelf_NBK424394.pdf

And you're right, I shouldn't just single out GUE fundies. There's ISE's Basics of Exploration, UTD's Essentials, and RAID's Performance Diver. Or grill instructors from other agencies that teach to that level and can describe to you in detail what you will be taught, and how you will be evaluated to earn certification.

 

[The Chairman]

The problem lies in the "capable" versus "mastered."

The real problem is you are trying to foist your values on the entire industry and expecting everyone to follow in lock step. Not everyone has the same focus as you do and that's OK. Remember: not your monkeys, and not your circus. Take a deep breath as you repeat this mantra.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

The real problem is you are trying to foist your values on the entire industry and expecting everyone to follow in lock step. Not everyone has the same focus as you do and that's OK. Remember: not your monkeys, and not your circus. Take a deep breath as you repeat this mantra.

It's about not abiding by standards. My values are not relevant to this disconnect

 

[100days-a-year]

Has anyone mentioned " stroke " yet? Pretty sure it's required at some point.

 

[Leatherboot69]

Pete,

I wasn't sure what the response would be to my previous comment, but it has been interesting to read. I'm not frustrated, I will just point out reality. Some people do not like this. In some cases, I understand this as they are so invested and identify with their respective agency that any discussion where the industry can do better is taken personally. That won't make me shut my mouth.

@Leatherboot69

As you stated, you don't know me or the individuals who took offense. A couple of comments of them taking offense is quite ironic given their own lengthy history. Stick around and you'll see what I mean and you'll say to yourself "why are these guys offended?"

You are 100% correct in the commercial reality. I invite you to read this blog post: An Evaluation of the Modern Scuba Diving Training Industry that does a great job of dividing up the driver demographics, though believe as you go up in the pyramid, the actual sizes are smaller.

The commercial reality is that most (not all) people have the expectation of having a c-card after going through the paces in the course. They feel good about themselves to "earn" this new title. This may be semantics, but the choice of words matter. The industry (not just PADI) uses the term "mastery" defined as the ability to "repeatedly" perform a skill "fluidly" and "comfortably". That is quite different to what you describe. You are describing a diver being capable of performing a skill, but not having mastered it.

Now I'm being accused of agency bashing. I have not singled out any agency. Often you will hear that "it is the instructor, not the agency." And this is true. There are excellent instructors in all agencies. But certain agencies have a higher percentage of crap ones. If you were to select an instructor at random from a objective standards based agency (like the DIR agencies GUE, UTD, ISE or RAID) for a course versus one from a subjective standards based one, with a sufficient sample size, you are going to see dramatically different results in the quality of training. Again, for the person who accused me of agency bashing, there are excellent instructors in all agencies.

The problem lies in the "capable" versus "mastered." There are instructors in all agencies who will make sure that you've mastered a skill, not that you are capable of doing it. I may be mistaken, but absolutely no agency that I am aware of states in its standards that a diver must merely be capable of performing a skill. If an agency is serving a market where "capable" is the final result, then the standards should reflect that. Throw out the use of the word mastered. Have integrity.

I do stand by my statement that instructors, especially CDs/ITs (as they are training new instructors), who feel that ticking off boxes/capable is good enough, should quit teaching.

You might want to read the 2016 DAN report where they discuss changes they'd like to see in training and ask yourself if those are being addressed in the training you seek as you move forward. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK424394/pdf/Bookshelf_NBK424394.pdf

And you're right, I shouldn't just single out GUE fundies. There's ISE's Basics of Exploration, UTD's Essentials, and RAID's Performance Diver. Or grill instructors from other agencies that teach to that level and can describe to you in detail what you will be taught, and how you will be evaluated to earn certification.

Thanks Wet

I read the first article. The second one was a bit long lol

Assuming it’s correct (and it’s hard to say because the author doesn’t cite any source data), the thing I take away from it is that the scuba industry, and the mass agencies in particular, are responding to what people want, ie market demand. Ignore that and the industry will eventually wither. The ‘highly committed divers’ who seem to constitute much of this thread want training standards that meet their personal expectations (nothing wrong with that), not what the market seems able to bear. I suspect the solution lies somewhere in the middle; I myself see myself in the underserved ‘mid-market’ category-more than a vacation diver but probably never going to be highly committed (which, going back to my original post, is why I made an active choice to pursue MSD)

 

[Jafo19D]

I’m just not at all interested. I have OW and AOW, the only other courses I’m planning to take are Deep Diver, Rescue and Nitrox, in other words certs that a DC might require for a certain dive. Maybe even Tec 40 and Wreck but that’s it. The other ones seems kind of silly and it doesn’t make any sense to me to pay just so I can say I’m a MD, the only ones that would be impressed would be the discovery divers on the boat and even worse, the dive center might take me for a sucker and charge me higher prices.

If I want to get better at a particular skill I’d do what the Chairman said and just pay a bit extra for some 1 on 1 instruction without a c-card

I won’t criticize anyone getting it but I just have zero interest.

 

[Centrals]

Has anyone mentioned " stroke " yet? Pretty sure it's required at some point.

Anyone still using it?
LOL!

 

[The Chairman]

It's about not abiding by standards. My values are not relevant to this disconnect

It's about applying your standards to the entire industry.

Ask ten divers what they mean by neutral buoyancy, and you'll get at least a dozen answers.

Ask ten instructors what constitutes an advanced diver, and you'll encounter the same phenomenon.

During college, I worked in a phys-chem lab on (at the time) the world's largest supercon magnet. I was a glorified plumber, making sure we had vacuum integrity. But different systems required different standards. The dewar had to maintain at least 10^-9 torr, while the helium pump needed to achieve a high volume 300 torr. for a reference, our atmosphere is 760 torr and space is 0.000000000000000001 (10^-17) torr. So, with just one term, I had to deal with four standards.

A purist wants just one value but that's not feasible. Not in today's culture.

So, I know how I want my students to dive. I set the example and work towards creating little Pete clones as one of my students put it. It's quite satisfying and I never have to rescue them. However, I'm vain enough that I'm OK with my students looking superior in the water to most others. Your students? Not my monkeys and not my circus. Dive and let dive. Teach and let teach.