A deep systemic problem with diver ed?

[MASS-Diver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Ideal conditions while doing a canned dive that sombody else planned at a site that somebody else picked.

If they were all diving Ohio the stats would look much different, I think.

Yup, that's my point Mike. PADI makes money by churning out vacation divers as fast as they can. These divers then travel to warm, clear water where the DMs know that the majority of thesetourists have poor skills and they treat them accordingly. Heck, lots of warm water charter boats even assemble gear for the divers. In these perfect conditions, these divers while having their hands held by DMs, are, for the most part, able to stay alive.

But, if you get your open water and dive somewhere "real" thinking you have some basic because PADIs gave you a c-card, you are F'd.

PADIs poor training has been great for the dive industry, but, it has killed the sport.

Real divers know PADIs' standards are a joke.

PADI wants everyone to dive, it's easy, right? Even your grandmother can do, just pay for the class and you're all set.

But, in lots of places you don't get to make to many mistakes underwater without dying.

 

[kevink]

There's sanity in this thread. Let's all blame PADI.

I doubt much of what we consider diving would even be around without the vast majority of people that buy gear and dive once a year in warm water climates. Does that make these people inferior for not wanting to venture into 40 degree water? They subsidize much of the gear and innovations that trickle up to more experienced divers. I don't fault people for only wanting to dive blue water. If they found something they like to do, more power to them. Beating them down for not diving locally is not the solution.

I could equally slam all the grey water divers that strap on doubles, two knives, a pony tank, two computers, 30lbs of lead, and gloves to do an 80 degree F 60' sandy bottom mooring line dive in the Bahamas. These bottom crawlers need to have some re-education as well. But I forgot, they are 'experienced' and therefore 'safe' underwater.

I still think a low-vis trained diver is safer in blue water than the reverse case, but the skills, equipment, and etiquette differ greatly. Anyone that is not acclimated to the local environment is a mess underwater, maybe not unsafe, but generally a mess. Blue to Grey water or Grey to Blue Water.

Maybe we could break certs out in the following manner - -

Blue Water Diver (only valid between the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn)
Grey Water Diver (Outside the tropics, wetsuit only)
Black Water Diver (Dry suit, computer must be plastered to your mask to read)

Would that start to satisfy people?

 

[MikeFerrara]

kevink once bubbled...
There's sanity in this thread.
Maybe we could break certs out in the following manner - -

Blue Water Diver (only valid between the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn)
Grey Water Diver (Outside the tropics, wetsuit only)
Black Water Diver (Dry suit, computer must be plastered to your mask to read)

Would that start to satisfy people?

Maybe we should. Or we could just have a resort diver cert.

Nothing wrong with people doing it. there is something wrong with them being led to believe that they can do it on their own, IMO.

There is also something wrong with nearly all training that assumes that the student will be diving in a resort environment.

A couple months ago a couple who I certified a while back paid me a visit. They had lots of great stories but some of them concerned me. they have as many dives below 100 ft as above and many inside wrecks following divemasters.

when I brought up the subject of gas management and such they were lost. Had they tried those dives around here and/or without a guid I wouldn't give a nickle for their chances.

 

[Grajan]

There are enough red herrings in this thread to move it to the 'marine life' forum but I think much of it is missing the basic point.

The following is my OPINION (note the emphasis I have no access to the absolute truth.....):

1. 'Divers' trained within the current recreational structure are generally not safe to dive ANYWHERE - regardless of the vis.

2. They are rarely aware and never made aware of their limitations.

3. This presents a danger to themselves, other divers and the marine environment.

4. The low standards are caused by a system with no checks and balances and inappropriate goals (mass market diving).

5. The primary cause of this problem is that the bodies 'responsible' for diver's education are industries masquarading as agencies.

6. There is a need for the sport (industry) to fix itself but it is highly unlikely to do so as this action will be counter to strong commercial drivers.

7. Divers, diving AND the marine environment would be much better off if there were less but better trained divers.

The last one may sound a bit elitist but diving is not for everyone it needs effort and commitment to be safe. If people are not willing to put that effort in then they should watch the Discovery channel - lots of fish there.

 

[Grajan]

Mike posted while I was writing my last but I like the idea of a resort cert.

This will provide limited training (i.e. What is happening now) but only allow you to dive with your hand being held.

Just keep them off the good reefs....

 

[kevink]

Mike, I am just playing pretend here, no offense.

Your students performed dives in excess of 100' and did wreck penetrations. Obviously their training was lacking and I have to fault you. Should one of them have become injured Graham would have us beleive one of the leading causes was inadequate training.

Is this Sanity? Of course not. God gave people free will. I am sure Mike mentioned the limits of their training, including depth and overhead environments. I can't only fault the students but the DM that took them on these dives. They did one of these 'Trust Me' dives and they happened to not get hurt.

In the end, Darwin and Poseidon are waiting at the bottom of the ocean to pull these people in. Sooner or later these migrant genes are weeded from the population.

FAT and/or STUPID, two of the biggest risk factors.

 

[MASS-Diver]

kevink once bubbled...
There's sanity in this thread. Let's all blame PADI.

I doubt much of what we consider diving would even be around without the vast majority of people that buy gear and dive once a year in warm water climates. Does that make these people inferior for not wanting to venture into 40 degree water? They subsidize much of the gear and innovations that trickle up to more experienced divers. I don't fault people for only wanting to dive blue water. If they found something they like to do, more power to them. Beating them down for not diving locally is not the solution.

I could equally slam all the grey water divers that strap on doubles, two knives, a pony tank, two computers, 30lbs of lead, and gloves to do an 80 degree F 60' sandy bottom mooring line dive in the Bahamas. These bottom crawlers need to have some re-education as well. But I forgot, they are 'experienced' and therefore 'safe' underwater.

I still think a low-vis trained diver is safer in blue water than the reverse case, but the skills, equipment, and etiquette differ greatly. Anyone that is not acclimated to the local environment is a mess underwater, maybe not unsafe, but generally a mess. Blue to Grey water or Grey to Blue Water.

Maybe we could break certs out in the following manner - -

Blue Water Diver (only valid between the tropics of Cancer and Capricorn)
Grey Water Diver (Outside the tropics, wetsuit only)
Black Water Diver (Dry suit, computer must be plastered to your mask to read)

Would that start to satisfy people?

First of all, it's not the warm water envirnoment that I frequnetly poke fun at and was "slamming" in this thread, it's the 5 dive a year vacation diver with no skills that symbolizes everything that is wrong with the SPORT of diving today. There of tons of great divers down in places like FL, I would never put someone down just because their water is so warm and clear, these divers aren't inferior because they are 80/80, they are inferior divers because they never practice, only dive a few times a year, dive hung over, destroy corals, etc.

You seem to think that everyone owes something to PADI and that if wasn't for them and for the hordes of poorly trained warm water divers they churn out , that "real" divers would someone suffer. Diving as a sport didn't start as a way to get people to visit the Caymans. These agencies have ruined the sport. Obviously, they have every right in a free market to do so, but, that doesn't mean serious divers have to like it.

I love how people defend 2 days certs, it's so funny what people thinks passes as being a profeicent diver these days.


There's a reason why one of the biggest insults you can levey on a diver is calling him or her a "tourist."

 

[MikeFerrara]

kevink once bubbled...
Mike, I am just playing pretend here, no offense.

Your students performed dives in excess of 100' and did wreck penetrations. Obviously their training was lacking and I have to fault you. Should one of them have become injured Graham would have us beleive one of the leading causes was inadequate training.

Is this Sanity? Of course not. God gave people free will. I am sure Mike mentioned the limits of their training, including depth and overhead environments. I can't only fault the students but the DM that took them on these dives. They did one of these 'Trust Me' dives and they happened to not get hurt.

In the end, Darwin and Poseidon are waiting at the bottom of the ocean to pull these people in. Sooner or later these migrant genes are weeded from the population.

FAT and/or STUPID, two of the biggest risk factors.

Actually, I think there is some sanity to it. This is exactly the kind of thing that helped form the opinions of the industry I have. The difference between the way I teach now and the way I tought then is night and day. Yes, the book tells them not to go below 60 ft or in overheads. However, on their first trip out some DM will say "follow me it'll be ok" and of course every one else is doing it so they go. So while we tell them we tell them with our fingers crossed. What I do different now is spend more time trying to get them to understand how much they're not being tought in that OW class and what there is yet to learn (and I don't mean AOW). For overheads I show them the video "A Deceptively Easy Way to die" which explains the hazards of, and the training one should have before diving overhead environments. For deep dives I give them some examples of the equipment I would use for a 120 ft dive and how I would plan it including gas management, decompression planning, ect. I review the DAN accident report in every class and point out how prominently poor skills figure into accidents and injuries.

Does it stop all of them? No. I do think they have a better idea of the real risks though and it does prevent some from doing the trust me dives.

In short, Over time I did come to believe that the training I was providing was inadequate so I changed it. It's going to change more yet especially after the shop closes next month.

 

[DSJ]

Mike, I think it is a great service to your students to inform your student what they don't know. I have to believe that it would counter a good deal of the industry hype that there isn't much difference in dives and the BOW is most of what you need to know.

In aviation, the initial certificate is given as a "license to learn". If more diving instructors gave the same message, we wouldn't have so many people susceptable to the "trust me" syndrome.

David

 

[MikeFerrara]

Look folks. A lot of what I'm so POed about here is that I swallowed the same crap so many others do. I started out teaching exactly as I was tought to teach. Eventually, I saw enough. Maybe some haven't seen enough yet. Maybe some are making enough money that they don't care.

I really believe there are instructors teaching poor classs who think they're teaching good ones because they're doing it right out of the book. That's what I was doing.

The first class I tought was for the shop where I was certified. I had six students in the pool alone without a DM. BTW, it was a new pool and the chemicals were off so the vis was about 10 ft. I was "talked to" because it took me over six hours to complete the pool work and they thought it could be done in five. Now after some years of practice I hate to try it in less than 15 and would prefer more like 20. Did I get slower? And it's not just the time either.

In the last week I've had two people walk in the shop and proudly expclaim that they want to be instructors. I should be overjoyed! Talk about a couple of cash cows...equipment packages and classes out the wazoo. Not to fault them for having a goal but the've never even been in the water on scuba. Their goal is what they think is going to be a cushy job in the Caribbean. They haven't given any thought at all to what effect their work can have on other people. All they know is what all the magazine adds say.