A deep systemic problem with diver ed?

[Grajan]

Genesis,

Can you reference the source of that evidence? I would really like to see it.

Ireland went for a long time without the need for driving licences and my recollection is that there was a substantial drop in the accident rate when they enforced some basic traing. Likewise enforcement of DUI laws and seatbelt laws has reduced accident rates substantially.

Personnally I like to think that the person coming towards me at a combined speed of 160mph has been forced totake some training. I recently had to do a defensive driving course. I thought it was very useful.

As for instructors. I was not talking about individuals masquarading as in instructors but about individuals traind in such inneffective and self serving certification agencies as to make the term meaningless.

I absolutely do not want this to decline into instructor bashing. The system is the problem not the individuals operating in it.

Our difference of opinion is that you see no need for a system at all. Guess we will agree to differ on that one.

 

[DSJ]

After reading all the posts so far I don't have much hope for regulation. Self regulation by the agencies doesn't work because of the conflict of interest. Government control is a crapshoot. It works extremely well for pilots (being one I can say I'd hate to see the same industry model in flying as in scuba), but the population of divers is likely much bigger. At any rate I'm not a fan of more goverment control.

I see a problem of lack of awareness of just what good diving skills are. As a beginng student, how do I evaluate a potential instructor? I personally had a pretty good instructor for my basic, but even then I don't recall being trimmed horizontal and performed most tasks kneeling on the bottom of the pool. I know he cared about teaching, but something got left out. Of course this was fifteen or more years ago and the general knowledge level may have been less.

The point is, how does the student evaluate themselves? This board has done a good deal to raise my awarness. I sought out more training so I would be horizontal for my trip to Bonaire last Thanksgiving from our very own Mike F. It did me a world of good. The thing is, I was told that I "looked funny" scooting around horizontal with a frog kick. This from folks who didn't think it looked funny to stop and hang vertical or stand on the bottom. They just didn't know any better.

Some form of general dive education awareness might help. More than just a list of standards, it should explain why the student would benefit from them. That way if a student is getting short changed in a class they could speak up and ask why a particular skill is being ignored. It would give them an ability to challenge an instructor if he or she just said "That's not important".

Now it might only work with the percentage of the diving population who are genuinely interested in being proficient, but at least it would help a few. It might also convert a few folks who didn't see anything wrong with their style of diving but didn't know any better. A discussion of the improved vis available to those with proper bouyancy might just prompt a rototiller to improve if only so that they would have an easier time at their favorite dive site. Some folks will change if they see a net benifit.

If we don't want the government to do it, and the industry won't, then we need another path to get the knowledge out to the prospective student and those who were certified but short changed.

David

 

[MikeFerrara]

kevink once bubbled...
I think a few people are missing the mark here.

Diving is a business. Just like airline travel is a business and automobiles are a business. Who defines quality? The customer of course. B-School 101 for everyone out there that wants another c-card.

I don't see a large upwelling of customers demanding that diving become safer. I see a lot of POed instructors calling for better standards, and I think I stand amongst your ranks. Unless you want this sport to die out you need to deliver what the customer wants (not what you want to provide). Right now the trend seems to be going towards providing a safe but FUN experience to a price conscious consumer.

There are enough training agencies out there. If there was a market niche for the Super-Trained Safe Diver, someone would change their standards to capitalize on this. Right now there is not.

You hit on a real good point here and it's true. If any one else noticed it isn't the cheated customer complaining. In fact how many times have we heard " My instructor was great. Can some one help me with my buoyancy control?" or "What is a free flow?" or "what is trim?". In fact the diver defends the system because if what I say is true he's out diving unprepared and he doesn't want to believe that. Most of the instructors don't even bother to argue it because it's working fine for them. This is exactly why I'm getting out. All of you have a right to buy whatever you want and I have a right to let somebody else sell it to you. I have no desire to sell the kind of diving that there is a demand for.

Heck, I just heard that the last guy hurt at Gilboa was in there complaining about what I've said on this board about how I think the state of Dive training relate to his accident.

I say this stuff because I think it's true and some body should say it. I have an inside view of this stuff that few OW or AOW diver do and I offer people the benefit of that for free. All of you of course have the right not to believe it and do as you see fit. In this way we can all have a clear concience.

 

[MikeFerrara]

DSJ once bubbled...
The thing is, I was told that I "looked funny" scooting around horizontal with a frog kick. This from folks who didn't think it looked funny to stop and hang vertical or stand on the bottom. They just didn't know any better.

A good frog kick is like scotch...it's an aquired tast. LOL

If I could put it in a bottle I would sell it as a cure for cramps. It would be bigger than split fins.

 

[bwerb]

Here are some random thoughts I had which I was hoping would add some more discussion points to think about.

1.) How many average divers ever do any drills or skills once they have done them in their classes? I haven't seen too many people out there doing OOA practice or mask removals on their dives to make sure they stay sharp.

2.) Since first aid certifications have expiration dates based on the "use it or lose it" theory...why is a skills based program like diving a once for life?

3.) Are instructors subject to re-certification exams every few years or agency inspection on an ongoing basis. If not, why not?

4.) Why is it acceptable that OW skills all done kneeling on the bottom when the reality is that problems are going to occur in the water column? I can see the kneeling skills as perhaps a stepping stone, but shouldn't the proficiency testing be done while hovering?

5.) Why do the majority of recreational text books and dive magazines show such dismal gear streamlining and trim in their photos?

Just some more fuel for the fire.

 

[Genesis]

Ireland went for a long time without the need for driving licences and my recollection is that there was a substantial drop in the accident rate when they enforced some basic traing. Likewise enforcement of DUI laws and seatbelt laws has reduced accident rates substantially.

Enforcing basic training, DUI and seatbelt laws has nothing to do with licensing.

If you agree that seatbelt laws are a good idea (I don't - if you're unbelted you hurt YOURSELF!) then you need no license to enforce them. "Click it or ticket" doesn't require anything other than observation that you're not wearing one.

For DUI, there is an argument to be made that you're endangering OTHERS by driving impaired. Again, you don't need a license to enforce a DUI law - drink and drive, go to jail. Simple. No license required.

Basic training enforcement? Again, no license required. If the issue is one of training, there are ways to prove that without a "license" (e.g. some insurance company will accept your risk!) There's also the obvious implied means - if some cop sees you driving dangerously, he can pull you over and ticket you on the spot. No license needed. Since "roving" police see you driving all the time (usually without incident) the argument that you'll get far without knowledge of how to drive in reasonable safety without being stopped for obvious dangerous behavior has no merit.

If the issue is one of identification, that too is a non-issue. If you cannot or will not present either payment for your transgression (e.g. the fine) or good enough ID that you're trusted to be released, there is always a nice gray motel for you stay in until you can do one of the above - or see the judge!

Now if I had to insert a "license" into a slot to START MY CAR, you'd have a point. Now its checked every time I want to do <X>. This is somewhat similar to what people want certification with divers to be - you must show your card to do <X>, right?

The problem being spoken for here (and with the driver license) is that the connotation of the card is not accurate. That is, the card does not actually prove competence. Neither does a driver license, I might add! Does the possession of a license show that you're not intoxicated? Of course not.

The problem with such a standard for diving is that its damn hard to enforce. However, we can get a reasonably facsimile by examining a diver's logbook (assuming he has one) and/or simply watching him dive - that is, if you care. I frankly do not, but I'm not "in the business." If you want to cap yourself in my presence, I do not object. As a libertarian at heart, I understand that you reserve the right at all times to do something stupid, up to and including committing suicide by your own hand.

If we enforce the reasonable facsimile then we no longer need the certifications. They serve no purpose whatsoever except to enrich PADI, SSI, NAUI and the other agencies.

But getting rid of them would do a number of good things. It would remove the "learn to dive in three easy hours" nonsense pressure, since nobody would profit from such, nor could anyone hide behind so-called "standards." It would make a "reasonable man's standard" the rule of the land in terms of liability for teaching, instead of something that has the power of legitimacy due to simple fiat (which is what we have now in the RTSC "half-standards".)

But.... nobody would make a buck off it at the "agency" level, because the agencies would not exist!

Solutions? There aren't any under the current regime.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Are you saying that any one could just teach because they wanted to? Without agencies, would you have every one design their own course without mandatory minimums (not that it would change anything)?

There are standards even for public schools, universitied and so on but they aren't handing out licenses. You still may not get a job in your chosen field, though, without a cert from them.

I think if the agencies went away then the government would come in for certain. The government would step in to decide what the definition of a diving instructor if the agencies weren't there to do it. then there would be licensing.

 

[cornfed]

bwerb once bubbled...
Here are some random thoughts I had which I was hoping would add some more discussion points to think about.

1.) How many average divers ever do any drills or skills once they have done them in their classes? I haven't seen too many people out there doing OOA practice or mask removals on their dives to make sure they stay sharp.

I did two weeks ago. When we're at the quarry we set aside some time to practice things on one of our first dives. When off shore we play around at the hang bar -- it makes your safety stop go faster.

Cornfed

 

[cornfed]

Grajan once bubbled...

Ireland went for a long time without the need for driving licences and my recollection is that there was a substantial drop in the accident rate when they enforced some basic traing. Likewise enforcement of DUI laws and seatbelt laws has reduced accident rates substantially.

Seatbelt laws have nothing to do with accident rates. They increase your likelyhood of survival when you get into an accident, but don't prevent you from having one.

 

[Genesis]

There are standards even for public schools, universitied and so on but they aren't handing out licenses. You still may not get a job in your chosen field, though, without a cert from them.

Yes, for PUBLIC schools there are indeed.

For PUBLIC universities there are indeed.

Note that such things are government-funded and come with a government mandate in one form or another. (For instance, in Michigan you must pass an approved-curriculum civics class to get a high school diploma - irrespective of what else you may have taken in high school.)

For PRIVATE universities? Nope. But if their internal standards suck, your degree is worthless. Or if they are just too radical in some way, their degree may be worthless to some employers irrespective of the purported "quality" of education.

In fact, there was a list of so-called "good" universities that I would not hire graduates from. One of those schools threatened to sue me once over my policy on this matter. I laughed. Their attorneys apparently did too, 'cause I never heard anything more on the matter after I laughed at them.

What keeps private universities in line? Their degrees need to be worth something, or there will be no people taking classes there.

What would keep voluntary standards and "diving groups" in line? Ditto. If a boat captain would not take a "JunkDiver Cert" card, then it wouldn't be long before that cert agency was considered worthless.

Congruence of "standards" (aka the "RTSC") hurts this cause, in that there is no reason for an agency to excel - they don't get anywhere by doing so.

BTW, I can teach now without being "accredited". What I can't do is hand out a PADI or SSI or NAUI card. But I can teach if I am willing to do so and assume the liability risk (or can find someone to insure that risk.) Whether my C-card will be accepted by anyone else is another matter.