A deep systemic problem with diver ed?

[Butch103]

......Are you advocating letting anyone rent gear grab a bottle and go diving ? No training?

Wow that is a cavalier attitude isn't it?

I don't think we need any "governement" US, CDN or any other involved.

I do think we need appropriate training to dive safely. We may not be good ( as in the bouyancy sense) divers, but safe divers.

As I said previously, who has the right answer? Irregardless of what we come up with, someone will find a way to circumvent and create havoc.

 

[wreckchick]

The major failing in the current structure is one of a failed promise to the student. I agree that one doesn't NEED a c-card to be a competent diver, but most prospective divers don't know anyone who can teach them to dive so they go to a professional for instruction and they are told that by completing a course they will be safe and competent to perform unescorted dives.

It is evidenced over and over again by the stories around this board that many instructors do not meet this burden and turn out divers that are not safe to dive. Whether or not they are actually injured or die is not the point. The point is that they can be a hazard to their fellow divers and the dive environment.

Poor instruction is a broken promise to the student and gives them a false sense of security in their own abilities as a diver. The c-card should only mean what it says it means, that the divers holding them can perform the skills they were taught and conduct themselves in a safe manner on a dive without someone chasing them around making sure they don't screw up.

Rachel

 

[Genesis]

First, yes, I am indeed advocating that you should be able to walk in off the street, rent a bottle, and go diving. Without showing anything other than the money to rent the bottle.

The liability problem has been created by the agencies, who then stepped in to "solve" a problem they created themselves!

There are other solutions to that problem. Releases, for one - which all the agencies seem to force down your throat too. Funny, that. Isn't the release enough? Sure it is. Will PADI or SSI back you up with their lawyers if your shop gets sued? Yeah, right. Only if they're named, and only until they're released from the suit. Then you're back on your own.

As for Mike getting pulled over, yes, I'm sure the cop wanted to see your license. How often do you get pulled over? I haven't been for more than 10 years. That was the last time I was asked for any evidence of my "driver certification" in operating my motor vehicles. But just last week I was asked twice for my driver license for things that had nothing to do with operating a vehicle. The point stands; its not a "driver license", it was, however, SOLD as one to you and the rest of our so-called "society"!

The problem here is that those of you arguing that certification cards are meaningless, and thus we need to tighten up the standards, have missed the point. The point is that the cards are nothing more than a form of attempted-enforced-legitimacy by a bunch of folks who profit immensely from that attempt.

They obviously do not provide what they claim on their face, or anything approaching it. In fact, Mike has said right here, in this thread, that he considers them worthless in qualifying a prospective student.

So is the fix to attempt to "enforce" the game? Down that road lies licensure, which will still be a fraud, but by God, it will be intrusive!

No, the correct path is to get rid of the insanity.

Of course that will screw with some corporation's billion-dollar plans. Oh well.

Now, if I come into your shop and want to rent a bottle, you ask for money and have me sign a waiver. If I want to get on a boat, you ask for my dive log - not my C-card. If you're not satisfied, you have to see me dive first, right?

Is this really any different than it is now?

No.

What's different?

The for-profit view of the agencies cranking out C-cards.

Gee, think that might be the problem?

I do.

 

[kevink]

I think a few people are missing the mark here.

Diving is a business. Just like airline travel is a business and automobiles are a business. Who defines quality? The customer of course. B-School 101 for everyone out there that wants another c-card.

I don't see a large upwelling of customers demanding that diving become safer. I see a lot of POed instructors calling for better standards, and I think I stand amongst your ranks. Unless you want this sport to die out you need to deliver what the customer wants (not what you want to provide). Right now the trend seems to be going towards providing a safe but FUN experience to a price conscious consumer.

There are enough training agencies out there. If there was a market niche for the Super-Trained Safe Diver, someone would change their standards to capitalize on this. Right now there is not.

Reading over DAN and Undercurrent a lot of diving deaths seem to fall into the Overweight or Stupid category. Neither of these can be tackled in a class. I am a firm beleiver that Stupidity is genetic. When the same person that has watched Jacka$$ the movie 5 times shows up in your class - be worried.

Crappy basic dive skills abound in the recreational arena. I think this is everyones cheif complaint. Luckily most of these poor skills only show up as elevated heart rates, injuries, or destroyed marine life. Most of them do not manifest themselves in the 'Last Dive' for people.

I just checked out 5 friends in Bonaire. After their 4 dive they were ready for their c-card. After about their 15th dive I would have been proud to have them on a boat with anyone on this board. It takes time to develop good bouyancy discipline and confidence. There is also a lot of UW ettique that goes without saying. Lastly until they have seen and handled a real problem, on their own, they have little appreciation for what you teach them in a class (and these are my friends mind you!).

The customer ultimately makes the decision who to train with. I think the industry needs to be more open about complaints and accidents. If an instructor has lost a student, prospective students have a right to know. Try to do basic research on a shop's or instructor's class record, it is tough, especially for someone not in tune with the industry.

From the customer's perspective they should be allowed to bring their certified friends in to watch the class. They should also be able to talk to past students that have trained with that shop (and not just the non-sense e-mails shops post on their website). And as a last test, if something smells fishy, it probably is.

 

[Grajan]

kevink,
Your choice of comparable businesses is interesting. both are subject to significant externally imposed safety standards. The airline industry is probably the most heavily regulated industry on the planet. They cannot fart without getting inspected.

Both, unlike diving, have multiple levels of checks and balances to ensure that standards are maintained.

As for your identification of overweighting and stupidity being the primary cause of accidents. Both of these are clearly training standard issues. Good training had better sort out buoyancy issues. It should also adjust attitude and filter out 'genetically disadvantaged' students.

As for killing off the business. I know it is a requirement of a capitalist system but I'm not convinced that uncontrolled growth is good for either diving or the diving environment. I am all for less but better qualified divers in the water.

 

[Genesis]

As for your identification of overweighting and stupidity being the primary cause of accidents. Both of these are clearly training standard issues. good training better sort out buoyancy issues. It should also adjust attitude and filter out 'genetically disadvantaged' students.

The problem is that you can't "filter it out" without getting back to the ORIGINAL issue, which is ENFORCEMENT.

As I've pointed out, you're arguing for licenses. Yes, you say you aren't, but you keep coming back to "filtering out" things, which implies the right of enforcement - only available under a licensure system.

 

[kevink]

I thought the analogies have been good. These are all businesses that need to make a profit to survive. Let me give a few examples as to why there is the amount of regulation there is - -


Airlines - -
People are afraid to fly, so in response, the Gov't places National Guard troops there with unloaded guns. Did this address safety?
People are afraid to fly so - we pull random people's shoes off and pass them through a mass-spectrometer. Did this address safety?
An airliner goes down over Florida because of improper cargo and maintenance, people are afraid to fly, so the gov't adds new rules on cargo.
They are not there to address safety, they are there to get people flying and pumping money into the industry again.

Automobiles - -
The gov't decides that we all need to have 40mpg fuel efficient cars. They don't sell because people don't want this crap, and they so in response they relax their standards.

Even thought the gov't in involved, it is in reponse to consumer demands (for the most part).


When I said overweight, I meant just plain FAT and OUT OF SHAPE, sorry. I can't train people into physical fitness, that would be a 6 month class. But when people scrounge around to add two weight belts together and hog all the 10lbers to hit the water, we have to wonder.

 

[Grajan]

I am quite happy with a degree of enforcement. Like it or not that is how society works. Laws and all that stuff.

When someone tells me he is a brain surgeon I (and probably you) assume someone has checked him out enough to give him the opportunity to kill me with the probability that he won't.

Likewise - when someone tells me he is a scuba diving instructor I would prefer to feel confident that he is appropriately trained and skilled without having to make that assesment for myself.

My guess is you think differently about this whole issue. Montana may be the answer.

 

[Genesis]

I am quite happy with a degree of enforcement. Like it or not that is how society works. Laws and all that stuff.

When someone tells me he is a brain surgeon I (and probably you) assume someone has checked him out enough to give him the opportunity to kill me with the probability that he won't.

Likewise - when someone tells me he is a scuba diving instructor I would prefer to feel confident that he is appropriately trained and skilled without having to make that assesment for myself.

You don't need what you're advocating to get there. In fact, its counter-productive. Do you believe that "driver licenses" have made for safer drivers? The evidence says that they have not.

Fraud covers the situation of falsely claiming you're an instructor and qualified as same. You need nothing more (or less.)

 

[kevink]

Grajan once bubbled...
When someone tells me he is a brain surgeon I (and probably you) assume someone has checked him out enough to give him the opportunity to kill me with the probability that he won't.

Likewise - when someone tells me he is a scuba diving instructor I would prefer to feel confident that he is appropriately trained and skilled without having to make that assesment for myself.

Do I think my Doctor is an MD? Does this mean he has not had his share of mistakes? Hell No. You would be crazy to have 100% faith in any physician, unless you are in the ER and have little alternative, in that case have lots of FAITH. The AMA does as much stonewalling as most of the diving agencies.

An instructor's C-card does not mean much in my book. That is the ticket to get into the show. And as with every profession you have people that are worth a damn and people that are better off rinsing fins somewhere out of the way.

Maybe I would be happy if all of the instructors on this board would get together and have a site titled 'I would trust this person to teach my MOTHER/FATHER or SON/DAUGHTER without reservation' and put a collegue's name that you would REALLY trust. Please don't nominate yourself. This would be my gold seal of approval. We could have 'Board Certified' Diving instructors.