A deep systemic problem with diver ed?

[PhotoTJ]

I have to say that anytime someone does something stupid and kills himself or herself, I have no problem with it. (As long as they don't take anyone else with them.) These morons who don't manage to kill themselves by doing something stupid, and immediately want to sue someone, should be severely over weighted, and chucked into the blue hole. Boy, if I were a Judge, and an attorney brought one of the cases before me, I'd make the lawyer pay for all the expenses, and....

But I digress...

Having said all that, I think that standards do need to be raised, a good idea would be to price instruction with a set price for x amount of time, and x amount for whatever additional time is required.

(Abuses of said system would be reported to the certifying agency)

There are no easy solutions.

 

[Popeye]

neil once bubbled...


About 40,000 people die every year in the USA in auto accidents.
I am willing to bet that more died in plane crashes last year than died while diving. What EXACTLY is the problem? IMHO, the problem is that you are annoyed at the skill level of divers you see out there. And for THAT you want government regulation of diving? I agree that diver education isn't what it could be. There are instructors around that couldn't teach fish to swim, but that's not enough reason to get outside agencies involved. Find a way to improve dive INSTRUCTOR training.

How many divers died in 1970?

About 100.

1980?

About 100.

'90?

about 100.

Anyone wanna take a stab at 2000?

I think that skill levels today are more a reflection on society in general, like divorce and crime rates.

Spousal pressure is a biggie.

I tell people who obviously don't wanna dive, that they shouldn't, and I see a few.

It's all about perception, the numbers that is.

Drunk drivers kill as many as handguns in this country every year.

If your teenager asked you for a .357 on Friday night, you'd scoff.

But you gladly hand him the car keys...

Thirty years ago, if you wanted to dive, it was a very serious decision.

For me, in 1997, it was $150 bucks and a weekend.

I can drink $150 bucks in an evening.

It's just not the same investment it once was.

Like flying or skydiving or anything (or glass blowing or wine tasting), the venue for training is there.

Some will take it more seriously than others.

I have 4 close freinds that were certified in their early 20's, and I waited till my late thirties.

They browbeat me into getting certified so we could go to someplace called "Bonaire" (which we never did).

These guys have been diving two decades, and only one of the four has over 100 dives (barely).

After six months or a year out of the water, what would we expect their proficiency to be?

(hint: reef rototilling)

I've been diving less than six years, and I'll break 900 dives in the next few weeks.

I don't have a lotta skills deficiency.



Popeye: I don't try to "train away" Darwin, I train 'em FOR Murphy

Peace,
Neil [/QUOTE]

Most excellent!

Me and Murph are old pals.

I know a lotta good instructors.

I don't know any bad ones.

I've taken 16 or 17 classes from 4 agencies, never had a complaint.

What you're sposta learn is in the book.

Some people are interested in that, some ain't.

But the fact that the industry cranks out divers the way it does, makes every aspect of diving less expensive and more accessible than it ever was, so I don't see a change in this trend coming anytime soon.

 

[Diver0001]

Grajan once bubbled...
<snip>

2. There is not a problem - This takes a little more swallowing givent the preponderance of threads that in some way complain about dangerously unskilled divers.

There is a problem with standards but it's not the problem you're assuming it is. The standards are clear enough to give a good instructor good guidelines to work with. If you understand and teach strictly to the standards then you should never produce a student who can't consistently maintain neutral buoyancy, (to pick an example). It's in there. It's like the first or second thing they say in the General Standards section of the PADI instructor manual.

So why are there so many divers with serious buoyancy problems? How can this happen?

If you ask me, it's two things:

- 1 - The standards don't *define* good buoyancy (sticking with my example). They say that you should judge a student on their ability to maintain neutral buoyancy but then leave it to the judgement of the instructor to determine if it's good enough. If a student struggles with it but keeps it more or less under control is it good enough? How about if a student slightly over-compensates? How consistently wild does it need to be before you think "he's not going to get it"? That's the judgement call. As a rule nobody is going to nail it in a few dives. When is it good enough? For the ethical instructor this isn't a problem.

- 2 - Complete failure of quality control. The standards are in and of themselves quite sufficient. But quality control is just for show. Instructors are not being controlled often enough or thoroughly enough and even when they ignore standards (hovering for 10 seconds instead of 60) the sanctions are light to pointless.

And about the time pressure. As far as I know the standards don't dictate that you *must* complete all the work on a certain time schedule. They dictate the order of presentation but if your student can't get it in 1 dive there is no rule saying that you can't make them do it again. The time pressure has everything to do with the instructor and doesn't reflect on the standards.

<snip>

In fact, I kind of feel sorry for the instructors. They are generally trying to maintain high standards with the whole system pushing against them. "Don't fail them - they won't buy gear", "Don't spend too much time they are paying a fixed price".

Not all of them are trying to maintain high standards. Some (more than you think) are trying to make a living and are cutting corners on the standards to preserve their profit. The fact taht PADI knows this an turns the other cheek is astounding. How many resort courses to think really cover the entire package? A friend of mine got his AOW without doing the dives. Just the theory and one pleasure dive together with a boat full of tourists. AFter the first dive the instructor certified him and said "I'm sure you can do it all". Long live resort courses. Do yuo still feel sorry for this instructor?

R..

 

[MikeFerrara]

I agree that with a lot that's been said on both sides. I think dive training is in sad shape. I also think that Popeye is right. It's good enough for the average vacation diver to survive and even manage to have a good time. The agencies and the instructors cater to the consumer who is happy.

As for me personally, I live in a small world. I work all week and then go teach diving at the quarry. I teach in lousy vis because there are so many who walk on the bottom. A few times a year I have to move over to make room for the ambulance. I don't like it but I, like some of you are a very small minority. By most peoples definition there isn't a problem. No one has to dive. Few people do dive. Of the ones who do, few are injured or killed. No one is surprised that a scuba diver drowns once in a while.

Nobody will have any incentive to do anything unless the numbers are there. As long as the agencies can use phrases like "In the unlikely event that..." they have no reason to change a thing. The training system has evolved perfectly for what it was intended to do and that is sell certs, sell equipment and fill resorts.

I for one don't have a solution and it doesn't matter because nobody wants one. I also don't have the stomach for it and I am eager for the end of next month when I'm out of my shop lease and I can once and for all end my association with recreational diving. I will even have a great place to go tune up my gear and play because less divers will be allowed into the deep end of Gilboa. So if nothing else the situation gave me and a few others our own little unsilted playground. The money that I'm leaving behind with no hope of ever recovering is a small price to pay to get out of this.

 

[inter_alia]

One thing I think most people that complain about dive training standards forget is that they were all on their first dive once. Somewhere. A lot of scubaboard members seem to have this idea that "I wasn't hazed enough, let's start hazing 'better'" attitude and there also seems to be little substance behind this mentality. I posit that people are upset as they garner more experience because there are only so many dive spots within driving distance and when they get there, they might be silty or crowded and, well, not ideal for the dry suit people today.

Yes, I only have 30 dives. Yes, half of those were in Bonaire where conditions are so easy you barely have to think. Yes, I'm still coming across problems/ issues when diving (Popeye, I was in Panama City last weekend, too) that I wish were covered in classes but -- I mean, how many problems/ issues can be covered in OW cert?
I have no idea what it's like to have hundreds of dives behind me and to have witnessed enough "stupidity" to know (as Mike seems to) standards are really getting worse. However, it does seem a shame that there's enough frustration with the business (it is a business) that Mike is happy to leave his shop.
One thing, though, is that all the OW divers that pay for gear and a few boat trips and a few liveaboards or even resort courses-- they are the ones keeping most dive shops in this business enough to make a few more advanced/ "serious" divers a small living or even keeping the businesses there for more advanced training and trips.

Again, while it's tempting to agree that OW isn't comprehensive enough, I'm going to say that as a beginner, it's up to me to ask questions and do my continuing homework and watch those that seem to have it together on boats... I take responsibility to a large extent because it's only my life I'm risking in the vast majority of instances.

 

[double125's]

To those who dont think 100 deaths a year is bad, What if one of those was a family memebr of yours? Would it matter to you then?
I dont blieve it is the agency pushing instructers to crank out high numbers. The agency gives the instructor the bare minimum, it is up to the instructer to teach to a higher level. Ever other buidness in the world does not settle for minimum.
The problem is that people say everything you need to learn is in the book then the agency says everything you need to know is NOT in the book, you need an instructer to to complete this course. If the instructer is not going to teach me anything why cant a just do a self study course. In other words you instructers are getting paid to instruct, stop trying to pass the blame.
Why is it up to you to ask questions about stuff you are supposed to be taught? As a beginner you have a lot on your plate and you may not digest it all, however that does not relieve the instructer from presenting it to you. If the instructer does his part then he relieves himself of all morale obligations to you. My problem is that instructers dont present the material then blame the student for "being Stupid." :boxing:
I know it sounds like I am attacking the instucter but they are the sole people we rely on for training. You were trained to instruct people and that comes with a lot of rsponsibility. if you cant handle the stress seak other employment.

 

[ScubaCrossing]

This thread jogged my memory a bit and I thank god I did not die at the hands of my Instructor. I got certifed in 1990, my Instructor, went over everything in a class room setting, even showed us gear. What did not happen was any pool dives, he said he could not get the pool, there for we would just go straight to the ocean dives. If that was not bad enough, it was a 10' Giant Stride into the water. I was fearless thought it was fun. Once on the bottm, he had me clear my mask, I did it purely on visual memory of him doing it in class. After that was completed that was it, he said I did well and was done. I was young at the time, and only cared about the card so I could Dive with my g-friend. This all took place in Sardegna Italy, he is no longer an Instructor. With those memories forever in my mind, I promised myself I would never ever short change a student that comes through my classes.

 

[Genesis]

is paved with good intentions...

To those who dont think 100 deaths a year is bad, What if one of those was a family memebr of yours? Would it matter to you then?

Yes, it would. I would note in my eulogy at the funeral that the person who did this made a choice - intentionally submerged themselves in a fluid they could not breathe, took along gear to solve that problem, did so under less than perfect conditions (as is proven by their corpse), made one or a series of bad decisions (as is proven by their corpse in front of me), and paid the price for their decision.

While we may celebrate their life and mourn their death, we must, in the end, respect their choice. We also must respect the choice of those who have gone before, and those who will follow him or her.

The tug on the heartstrings as some kind of siren song to make our chosen activities risk free sounds good, but it is the mark of Satan personified. For with that call comes the Government, extreme levels of cost, idiot savants telling you when you can and can't dive, "monitors" along with you, just like in China when you want to report the news, and on and on and on.

Those who advocate such a thing should consider that some people consider such advocacy to be awfully close to the line of treason.

And I'm sure in your history classes they provided instruction on the proper penalty - throughout history - for such an infraction of the public peace.

BTW, for those who want to dive around the Destin area, give a holler. I have a nice, private (not a charter) boat, love to dive, do it a lot, and welcome Subaboard members to come experience divng around here WITHOUT divemasters, WITHOUT people crowing about how you MUST do things, and with the understanding that this activity is simply between you and the sea.

Nothing more or less.

 

[double125's]

I am not saying we need government regulation because as it has been pointed out here there are a lot of downsides to that. I want the instructer to take responsibilty for their actions. When someone gets hurt they try to point out how the individual was an idiot and they are the ones who turned out the incompitant diver.
I also believe that the individul is responsible for not taking the class serious and jeep'ing the standards.

read ScubaCrossing's post and tell me who's fault that would have been had he got injured. You very first mask clear was in the open ocean:fury:

 

[Grajan]

Making it the divers problem and talking about individual responsibility would be fine if we were talking about advanced training for experienced divers.

The trouble with training total novices (in any activity) is that they have, by definition, no idea what they need to know or what is good or bad instruction. This places considerably more responsibility on the instructor and therefore the institutions that support the instructor to both determine and MAINTAIN effective standards. In diving that responsibility often appears to be abdicated in the name of profit.

It is easy to look down in scorn on 'bad divers' from the vantage of having survived a few hundred dives and got to know better but these people generally believe thay have got what they paid for - appropriate and adequate training to be safe divers. Are bottom kneelers at fault because that is what they were taught to do?

I have instructed in a number of sports including skiing and sailing and I have participated in many more. In every other case (at the time of my participation) instruction was a by-the-hour service with no pressure to cut corners.

I really do not have the answer but I do believe that people are getting unnecessarily killed or injured because of a seriously flawed system. Unfortunately Mike may well be right - no-one that could make a difference really cares. Just keep the money coming in.