A deep systemic problem with diver ed?

[Walter]

"Speaking of pulling information out of thin air and posting it on the internet, how's that lawsuit with PADI going?"

The two are unrelated.

While I am not a party to the suit, I am a witness and as such will not comment on the suit until it is settled. That could be July 6.

 

[Popeye]

Diver0001 once bubbled...


If you look at the DAN report from this year you'll see that 60-odd% of fatal accidents involved buoyancy problems and a whopping 30% involved OOA. These are cross agency stats. It would be very interesting to know what the root causes of the buoyancy problems were but I wouldn't be surpised if Walter is right and much of it has to do with panic.

And his solution might not be so "left field" either.

Just looking at the statistics I'd say that the simple act teaching students to watch their pressure better would solve 30% of the problem. In a word "alertness".

Keeping in mind that your "whopping" 30% OOAs you refer to is roughly 30 divers, out of millions of divers doing millions of dives, I fail to see what indicates a system wide problem.

It's like saying that since we had -one- plane crash last year, we should re-evaluate the principle of flight.

Millions of divers.

Millions of dives.

You guys just can't see it, can you?

 

[Popeye]

Walter once bubbled...
Popeye,


You reasoning is flawed. First, your stats are numbers pulled from the air. No one knows what the death rate was 30 years ago and no one knows what the death rate is today. This is because there are no accurate numbers on number of divers or on number of dives. I agree with Rotuner that number of dives is necessary for realk stats, but we don't even know how many divers are out there.

You don't seem to see that many OW students and certified divers are incompetent. I do. You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

I get my numbers from DEMA, PADI and DAN.

DEMA is the marketing agency that you once said was totally unaware of it's market.

But for anyone who can see the bigger picture, it doesn't matter.

You can plug in any numbers you choose, and the problem simply doesn't exist.

You miss my point about the quality of dive training.

It's obvious that standards are relaxed, we just see the consequences differently.

I was a PADI three day wonder (which was perfectly sufficient), and I choose to hold myself to a higher standard.

Everybody has that choice.

But for all the danger and doom you profess, you're sure scrimpy on evidence.

Just out of curiosity, do you have a boat you regularly use on the west coast, or east coast?

I'd like to see all these spastic divers.

If you'd like to complete an entire dive without seeing any, try Splashdown out of Boyinton Beach, or Minnow out of West Palm.

Maybe it's just your area.

 

[Walter]

Popeye,

I see your point, I merely disagree with it.

I see lots of divers. Most of them aren't ready to be certified. Unfortunately, they are certified.

There are two possible situations:

1. They know they paid for a cheap fast course, but could have had better training.

Quite frankly, as adults they are entitled to make such decisions and I'll support their right to do so. When people ask me about classes, they sometimes mention that the course is cheaper at a local shop. I agree and tell them if price is their only consideration, they should go to that shop.

2. They paid for a cheap fast course, but don't know they could have had better training.

This one angers me, because it's dishonest. These people have been cheated. There's no reason for it, because the majority of people will knowingly buy the cheap, fast course.

I would love to see agencies raise their standards, but they have every right to continue with low ones.

I'm not advocating a change in the system, I am advocating honesty about the system.

 

[Charlie99]

Walter once bubbled...
I don't believe death rates are a good indicator of the problems in dive training. Rates pulled out of the air aren't good indicators of anything.

The low fatality rates are an indication that, in spite of how some divers like to portray scuba as a macho adventure sport, for most people it is a nice, safe recreation.

The total number of scuba related fatalities in the U.S. has been pretty consist at just below 100 per year. Looking at the DAN accident reports, it seems like a lot of the fatalities were precipitated by some really bonehead actions.

The big failure in dive training is failure to instill common sense. Unfortunately, I haven't yet heard of a way to teach common sense.

Would making open water classes 10 times longer make the graduates better and safer divers? Yes, of course. Is this necessary? No.

The current system of focusing on the bare essentials has worked well. The relatively low accident and fatality rates are the proof.

Nothing prevents a diver from either learning more on his own, or prevents him from taking further formal classes.

Charlie

 

[MikeFerrara]

cornfed once bubbled...


I used to want to blame the training agencies and watered down standards for everything but I'm having a harder and harder time doing so.

Let me share two examples....

First, a couple of weeks ago when I was at the quarry with two friends "Td" and "Tr". Td and I just bought compasses so we were eager to try some navigating. We talked about our course, took some bearings and dropped under water. Td was supposed to lead use out and Tr and I would follow. Before I knew it Td was not only headed in the wrong direction, but headed deeper then he should have. He never took his eyes off his compass to look at Tr and I and just swam off. He did this again on another dive. Was this because he had poor training? No. He was taught all the same buddy awareness crap everyone else here was. He did it because he was too busy with his new toy. Nothing whatsoever to do with training or stardards.

I don't know how much training or experience your freind has but it's a pretty good example of the kind of sloppy diving I'm talking about. I have witnessed many AOW classes where the students could crawl around the course and loose their buddy any way they wanted to and still pass.

Second, I took a cavern class back in January. Before one of our dives we were in the water waiting for some other students to get in. While waiting my instructor struck up a conversation with two full cave certified divers who were finishing their dive. The pair in question was so excited when because they had just come back from a very long penetration (some milestone that means something to cavers). They had been using scooters. My instructor asked them very calmly, “have you ever swam that far before?” They just looked at him blankly. He then asked, “if you scooter had failed, could you have swam out?” It was obvious that they had never thought of this. These were two FULL CAVE CERTIFIED DIVERS! Have the cave standards dropped too? No, they maintained a continuous guideline, took 3 lights and all the other equipment cavers are brow-beat into using. Then the rode their scooters till they had used 1/3 of their air then turned around and came back. They did everything like they were trained to do. What they didn’t do was think.

Some say the quality of cave training has dropped though I haven't been around it long enough to say. I am told there is far less mentoring going. Either way these guys did not do as they were trained if they dived to thirds using a scooter. Usually a full cave course doesn't include any scooter training other than to mention that it's one of those times that the rule of thirds is not adequate gas management. Going too far too fast is considered by many to be a problem in cave and tech diving.

You can’t teach people how to think. You certainly can (and should!) tell them everything they need to think about, you just can’t make them think about it.

Cornfed

I agree. While I think standards can be greatly improved I don't think that's the big problem. I think the big problem is that many instructors are not teaching to the intent of the standards. The standards require good buoyancy control on every dive. I don't see it being done. Standards require propper weighting on every dive. I don't see that. There are many posts on this board giving divers personal accounts of standards violations.

IMO, the place to start is to enforce the standards we have.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Charlie99 once bubbled...

The big failure in dive training is failure to instill common sense. Unfortunately, I haven't yet heard of a way to teach common sense.

Attempting to teach the difference between good and bad judgement is the essance of dive planning. We aren't teaching dive planning. When you were certified were you required to demonstrate your ability to plan a dive within your training level or did you follow the instructor? We can't force common sence uppon a person but certainly we can provide a definition of it as it relates to diving.

Would making open water classes 10 times longer make the graduates better and safer divers? Yes, of course. Is this necessary? No.

I wouldn't make it ten times longer. I would however that students display the master required in confined water before goint to OW. I would insist that student meet the performance requirements in OW before being given a card. If you read the standards and then go watch many OW classes you'll see that this isn't being done.

The current system of focusing on the bare essentials has worked well. The relatively low accident and fatality rates are the proof.

not for every one. And this from a diver who paid for a DIRF to learn what he should have learned in OW. Except for the equipment requirements and lift bag deployment the DIRF requirements reads very much like the PADI OW standards. Same skills.

Nothing prevents a diver from either learning more on his own, or prevents him from taking further formal classes.

Nothing prevents them from learning but the system sure does prevent them from knowing just what there is to learn. More classes isn't the answer. When a student can be kneeling on a platform of OW dive 4 and taken to 100 ft for their AOW deep dive on their very next dive I would almost advise against another class.

Have you watched an advanced class lately? Crawling through a vav course shouldn't count according to standards.

Why do we need a high death rate to see instructors are cutting corners? Is it ok as long as not too many die?

 

[MikeFerrara]

A few months or so ago I was talking to an educational consultant at PADI. He asked if I intended to teach the tec rec program. I told him no and he asked why. I gave two reasons. 1, was that I have decided that I don't want to teach at 165 period and especially on air and 2, was that I didn't know where I would get students. I explained that in my opinion none of the training PADI offered prepared a diver to begin technical training. I explained that IMO, I would have to almost start over with the basics. I described some of the things I often see at the local training sites. I explained that by 9am the vis is shot to hell. I told him that I didn't think there was a technical market in that crowd

His reply.....

He explained that they are aware that there are many instructors who either don't understand what mastery learning is or that they are cutting corners. Why don't they do something? He explained that their solution is to further develop training materials so that class time could be reduced and that would encourage instructors to spend more time in the pool. I think that may be the moment I decided to get out of this. They already define the level of proficiency students should have in confined water. No doubt it's somewhat subjective but it isn't hard for anyone who can read to get the jest of the intent of the standards. Yet...the average OW class around here only includes 5 or 6 hours of pool. In some cases for classes of 20 or more students. they should IMO, forget about the stupid materials and inforce the standards or re-word them so it is clear to the instructors.

If any one cares to we can take my copy of the standards and go watch classes at Gilboa. Just for fun we can compare what we see to what we read.

Why would we insist it kill people before we streighten it out?

 

[Genesis]

it doesn't kill people.

Last weekend I had a friend's son on board my boat specifically so he could do the "final dive of the day" with us - a "weenie" dive by our standards, to about 50' on one of the few local sites that are that shallow.

He had no tables, no logbook, only a dive watch (bottom timer), SPG and depth gauge.

Nor could he tell me what the NDL was for his tank full of air to the planned max depth (there's a hard floor there - no way to exceed the max depth without a shovel!)

I knew, but he didn't.

We did the dive, but after we got back up I explained to him that in the future he would bring his planning tools and plan his dive accordingly before he got in the water or he wasn't going to get wet - at least not so long as he was a friend's minor son, and I was asked to look after him!

I know for a fact that at least one of the local cattle boats doesn't ask for you to have tables (or a computer!) on board. They give you the NDLs for the dives, calculate the RNT for you, and tell 'ya "ok, you need to begin your ascent 20 minutes after you splash on this dive assuming you are diving air." No planning required - its all done fot you.

If ther's something I find to be dumb, that's where the dumb part is. I'd call it the "real dumb" part, personally.... I've dove on that boat and while they're "ok" by the tables, they're JUST "ok" sometimes - I like a bit more conservatism than they seem to.... but its tough when you're on a cattle boat and they're keeping a schedule.

His in-water control was reasonably good though. This was someone who a local shop certified, and he's green - the first "local example" from this shop that I've dove with fairly fresh out of OW class. And he was in a poodle jacket at that.

So the news is not ALL bad....

 

[MikeFerrara]

No, Genesis it isn't all bad. There are good instructors. But...I don't think the cattle boats wouldn't plan the dive for people if they could do it themselves. Such a thing would insult some but other depend on it.