A deep systemic problem with diver ed?

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis once bubbled...


I'm not.

Then again, I am one of those funny civil libertarian guys who thinks that you have the right to cap yourself - intentionally or otherwise.

Even if you do it based on flawed information/training (or lack of it) you purchased in good faith?

Even when there are standards violations involved in that training?

buyer beware!

 

[Popeye]

MASS-Diver once bubbled...

Dude, how's it my friend's fault when his PADI OW instructor didn't teach him crap and exceeded 60' during the course.

Because he got 95% on his exam, so he knows what's in the book.

I'm sure during his predive breifing, he asked why they were exceding 60 ft.

How is it his fault when a PADI DM doesn't have a clue how to guide people on safe dives (that is his job)? This guy got a 95% of class exam and "aced" his OW dives, how come he is such a poor diver? Hmmmmm, maybe the standards are a little low? [/B]

PADI DM?

Not an instructor?

Now your friend is really in the hole.

First off, we only have your opinion he's a poor diver.

He seems to have aced his OW dives, as you say.

He's only been taught the basics of diving, Dude, not GUE Cave 3.

The problem is that people coming out of PADI's OW course aren't just poorly trained, they don't realize how poorly trained they are?[/B]

Well, there's no evidence to support that, but, since it is possible in individual cases, such as your friend, what are you doing about it?

I mean, he -your- friend.

Do you really think PADI is doing a job of creating competent divers? [/B]

Yes, obviously.

PADI's job is to create an entry level diver that can dive safely in easy conditions, or seek further training for more hostile conditions.

They've trained a million divers in the last five or six years.

And upgraded the training of many as well.

BTW, this was about my friend (not me or my dive buddies), so don't tell me to take responsiblilty. And as for my friend, he's not complaining, he thinks he's a great diver and he's got the card to prove it. Heck, he'll probably get his AOW next time he's down south, he heard that class is "cake" as well. [/B]

You don't take responsibility for your friend as a more experienced diver?

How poor.

Says something about the quality of -your- dive training.


The glaring point you miss here is that this incident isn't related to LOW standards, it's a VIOLATION of standards.

Do you get it?

Your friend had all the information he needs, and he should have had your input (apparently you have the time to whine about it here, but didn't work with him before class), and he let an instructor lead him by the nose.

PADI, and their standards, had little or nothing to do with it.

It's just easier to take potshots at them than assessing your, or your friend's responsibility in the incident.

 

[Popeye]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


I think he was saying that he was taken below 60 ft on his OW checkout dives. That is a blatant violation of training standards. Do you really want the page? I'll get it for you monday if you do.

snip good stuff

Such poor judgment on the part of the instructor could be the basis of action by the agency if they cared.

But Mike, it's a VIOLATION, not a low standard.

How are we gonna make any gains if we can't even identify the argument.

If the agency didn't care, there would be no apparatus for action.

 

[Popeye]

Diver0001 once bubbled...


Each one of these fatailitys was senseless and easily avoidable.

What you seem to be suggesting is that diving is a safe sport and you need to keep accident stats in context. I'll go along with that and I'll go along with the suggestion you seem to be making that anything you do to improve the situation will have a marginal affect on the stats.

But a death has meaning beyond the numbers and I'm uncomfortable with the suggestion that it's "good enough". When we get to the point that you can only see really unavoidable stuff in the incident reports then I'll say it's "good enough".

R..

You cite 30 OOAs as an indication of low training standards.

Can you tell us which agency teaches them not to frequently check their SPGs?

Steve Berman, one of the most experienced divers in the country, OOAd.

Was that an OW training standards issue?

I find that odd because he was stage diving on mix (IIRC) 1500 ft back in a cave.

Should we flog his OW instructor?

Or does shxt just happen?

Inquiring minds, and all that,

 

[Genesis]

Even if you do it based on flawed information/training (or lack of it) you purchased in good faith?

Even when there are standards violations involved in that training?

buyer beware!

Ah, but did you?

I've read the PADI, SSI, and NAUI OW books. ALL THREE give the 60' depth limit for training dives, and the OW "certification". All three specify the skills you must be able to perform. All three contain the information you speak of.

Now, given that I have in print the standards, which I am supposed to have read, before I get in the water, exactly who's fault is it if I permit a violation of those very same rules to take place an hour, two, or a day later?

Mine, right?

This is like saying that its not your fault when you get pulled over doing 70 in a 55 zone, immediately after you passed the speed limit sign!

 

[diverbrian]

The point is that if I lead a dive below 60 ft. (or any other serious violation of standards) as a DiveCon when (hopefully) I know the standards better than the average OW diver, it is my responsibility that I led the dive in a manner that goes against standards.

If these students go out on their own (without a dive professional around) and commit such a violation, it is their responsibility. But, as a person who doesn't like to hear about officials knocking on the doors of survivors, I really wish that there was more training in the initial open water course on gas management and dive planning before we turn them loose to go diving with their buddy who was in the same class until they see another diver.

If it is on MY watch it is my responsibility and some laywer will make good and sure to remind me of that if something happens that is not good.

 

[Popeye]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Even if you do it based on flawed information/training (or lack of it) you purchased in good faith?

Even when there are standards violations involved in that training?

buyer beware!

Mike, here's the big question...:

Was the information delivered in class or not?

Did the student recieve it and blow it off?

Why do you assume malfeasance on the part of the instructor in every incident, especially being an instructor yourself?

You and I have chatted extensively about solo diving, but you -know- than none of my many instructors have ever advocated this, or suggested I try it.

So when I die solo, will you and Walt post that it was a training issue?

Maybe the solution is to require video taping of class room instruction and pool sessions.

THEN we'd know what was said/sent, and what was recieved...

Then individuals who slack and chatter in class, and do the bare minimum to pass, won't have the agency to blame any more.

You got one guy in this thread that alleges that instructors routinely don't teach monitoring SPGs. One guy says that every student ever graduating the current system (which would include yours, BTW) are unsafe to themselves, other divers, and the environment.

It's a miracle anybody anywhere survives a day in the water.

I'm going diving in the Little River today, up in the mountains.

I'll be sure to post later so that ya'll know I made it.

 

[Popeye]

diverbrian once bubbled...
The point is that if I lead a dive below 60 ft. (or any other serious violation of standards) as a DiveCon when (hopefully) I know the standards better than the average OW diver, it is my responsibility that I led the dive in a manner that goes against standards.

No.

Each diver is responsible for his own dive.

Every agency teaches this.

The only exception is with an uncertified student.

That student is still responsible for his own dive, but the instructor is as well.

You, as a DC (assuming you're acting as an AI, with studii), may well be responsible for standards violations, but the student is still responsible for choosing to participate in your violation.

 

[Genesis]

Its about damn time that people started waking up to this.

Certified or not, the "rules" are laid out in the books, and you are expected to have read them before you show up for class.

You all watch an "assumption of risk" video. You also all sign a nice long waiver explaining all of this.

If you then, having freshly read that material, knowingly participate in a clear violation of the very rules you just read, exactly who is at fault here?

Yep..... go look in that mirror....

 

[diverbrian]

Mike, here's the big question...:

Was the information delivered in class or not?

As a former instructor for divisional training in the Navy (and a graduate in their shipboard instructor course), I can tell you that there are good instructors and bad ones. One of the differences revolves not around IF the information was presented, but was it presented IN A WAY SUCH THAT THE STUDENTS COULD UNDERSTAND IT.

Look. We have all had instructors "talk over our heads" until we get that "information overload" look. We have also had them try to teach the information so fast that only Albert Einstein could absorb it that quickly. We have had them "dumb down" the information until we are so bored that the class is half asleep by the time they get to the meat of the subject. This isn't just in diving. This is in nearly every topic imaginable.

The good instructors do this once in a while, too! The difference: the good ones watch the class and not their presentation. They are aware that every class is a little different. They change their teaching pace as they need to help the students understand. If there are one or two students that still don't understand, they give them one on one time with themselves and/or an assistant to help them along without boring the class. The bad ones keep keep going to meet their class schedule and let the students have problems. Then they chalk up the problems to bad students.

When our LDS runs a class, the students sign a form. It states (among other things) that the instructors have the responsibility to teach. The students have the responsibility to do their best to learn. If over half the class has that "deer in the headlights" look, it is a pretty good bet that the first part of that statement isn't being followed correctly. Again, I realize that not all classes are the same.

Also, it is the instructor's responsibility if the students think that they are doing well on their skills and are sent out to the open water (and worse yet, passed there), if their skills are borderline at best. If the "building block skills" required are not close to second nature (I am referring to things like mask clearing.), you are allowing a person with little idea what to do in an emergency out into the water on their own. When things get dicy, they will most likely have to expend more thought (if they can think at all with their world going to garbage in a hurry) just to think about something like a lost fin or a flooding mask. How many more times do you want to see threads about pulling divers out of Gilboa?

Another point:

You, as a DC (assuming you're acting as an AI, with studii), may well be responsible for standards violations, but the student is still responsible for choosing to participate in your violation.

If it happens on a shop function, unless the student (or diver if I were acting as DM) totally chooses to blow off the dive plan that should be planned withing the standards of the training agency, I WILL BE FOUND LIABLE. A jury won't see things as nicely as some of the people here. If I planned the dive in an unsafe manner (ie. knowingly having students follow me without a plan and following a multi-level dive on my dive computer alone), it is somewhat expected by most juries that most new divers/students will be too intimidated by my role and will follow me. Maybe, I would get lucky and someone would bail me out by telling me that it was unsafe, but the orginal plan would be my responsibilty. Bottom line, the dive professional is expected to plan and lead dives in a safe manner.

If you are out on your own (solo or perhaps with a non-professional buddy), you are responsible. And yes, most agencies have in their OW manuals that you are not supposed to dive on your buddy's computer and keep an eye on your SPG (and many other obvious rules to diving). If those are violated in that case, it is most likely the sole responsibility of the divers.

But at some point, the buck has to stop. Our opinions differ as to where the buck stops, but we agree on that concept.