A deep systemic problem with diver ed?

[MikeFerrara]

Swimming requirements...

I know los and lots of divers who only dive in the tropics. They don't wear a wet suit. They may have to swim without one.

It's a test of comfort in the water and basic watermanship. Is it a perfect test? No. but being able to swim won't hurt them. Bailouts and ditch and dons demonstrate comfort, stress management and underwater problem solving abilities. I used to think they were a wast of time. Of course one of the agencies I teach for doesn't use those skills. Now, I'm not so sure.

One could argue that you could dive without being able to swim. One could also argue that you should know how to swim before getting on a boat or going anywhere near the water cuz ya might fall in.

You people are funny

 

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis once bubbled...
in particular seems idiotic.

Why not let people take it using whatever gear they like, up to and including a full wetsuit appropriate to the local diving conditions (e.g. a 3 mil or shortie in warm water), mask, fins and the everloved-by-PADI snorkel?

Because some don't dive local and some dive all over the world. Sometimes with no wet suit at all. Maybe we should have a special card for those who need floaties. LOL

I suck as a freestyle swimmer. I can butterfly until hell freezes, and that's what I did for my "swim test". The butterfly sucks in the turns though, as you have to keep looking back or you'll prang your head on the pool wall and that negatively affects your speed.

Speed isn't a requirement. Being able to sustain and move throught the water unaided for a given distance is the only requirement.

I know people who are NEGATIVE in the water in a bathing suit, and for them to do a "swim test" is simply unreasonable.

No. it's important.

They're going to wear SOME exposure protection that is positive while diving, simply because inherently they're not!

Where the hell did you get that? They may very well dive in just a swim suit and their BC.

If the issue is watermanship, should not we test in conditions similar to those under which the person will be efforting? Are you going to scuba dive without a mask? Not intentionally! Without fins? No.

And what conditions are those?

I think dive training these days is about barely scraping by. Thus every one is able to dive.

I'm starting to get it. Some of you just barely scraped by and you don't others suggesting there was something wrong with your training. Sorry.

 

[Charlie99]

Popeye once bubbled...
[BI'm closing on 900 dives in less than 6 years, and used to DM a popular cattle boat in West Palm, and dove quarries in 5 states, and I've NEVER seen anyone doff and don.

Is it a useful skill, or a party trick? [/B]

Party trick, except when diving off a kayak or a boat w/o a ladder.

 

[Genesis]

won't be diving in a swimming suit if they have any brains.

You'd hope that part of understanding safety issues is insuring that you have SOME WAY to become and remain positive. If you're inherently negative, that means you need some neoprene.

 

[Diver0001]

Popeye once bubbled...
<snip>

Are you telling me that out of -millions- and -millions- of succesful dives, you see 15 0r 20 OOAs as an indication that instructors are not training students to check their SPGs?

I see what you're getting at. It's a question of responsibility. Is the agency at fault, the instructor or the diver if the diver doesn't watch his gauges? What I see as a problem with teaching alertness, because it occurs in predictable numbers you're seeing as 30 Darwin winners. I'm not sure if I'm right or you are, maybe the truth is somewhere in between.

I've never seen this happen, again, it must be a location thing.

Probably. On the one hand you can blame the diver for not taking responsibility but the DM is also setting an expectation by doing it.

Since you know how vocal I am, I know that you could well imagine my response at overhearing a conversation like this.

I can imagine

I cannot imagine that you think this is the way these people were taught to dive in their OW class.

I don't know. Some of them probably were. I've seen people coming out of resort courses who can't even put the reg on a tank. Literally.

How many people get struck by lightning?

Have a car accident while tuning the radio?

Shoot themselves while cleaning a gun?

Rob, this number of yours is -absolutely- -insignificant- when considered against the infinite number of succesfully completed dives.

Sure when you compare it to other more risky activities you have a point. It makes the whole discussion look pretty marginal. In fact you could probably argue that driving to the dive-site is the most dangerous part of the sport and that what divers really need is to learn how to *drive* better.

<snip>

If you see this as evidence of a system wide failure, please explain -exactly- why the vast majority of divers never OOA.

Do you know the saying "you can't judge the quality of a decision by the results"?

I think the vast majority of divers don't hurt themselves because diving is inherently pretty safe. It's actually hard to hurt yourself diving. When it happens it's gut-wrenching but then again so is shooting yourself when you're cleaning your gun.

Is current upwelling an agency standards problem?

Well, since you brought it up.....

How do you correlate this minute abberation against the titanic masses of sucessful dives?

I know it looks marginal on the stats but don't you believe we try for continuous improvement?

R..

 

[cornfed]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Well that's just it. Students don't know what they are supposed to be getting. They don't know when standards are violated.


I'm starting to agree with Mike.

Before I took my AOW class I talked to a few people and shopped around some. Unfortunately this was before I discovered cyber-diving so I didn't have very many opinions to compare. In the end I went with SSI because they looked better on paper. The 24 logged dives seemed like a good I idea along with the fact I would get some actually specializes instead of just exposure to them (or so I thought anyway). The instructors in the shop, which isn't the closest shop to me, seemed like a good guy when I talked to him on dry land. The academics were a useless. I learned more reading on my own before class -- and I don't mean reading the books for class. The dives were even worse. One of the specialties was "Deep Diving". This consisted of, "that part of the quarry is deeper... we're going over there." We made two dives and on the second the other guy in the class had a free flow. This occurred less then 3 minutes into the dive because the guy had a set of no name POS regs which (I learned later) were complete unsuited for the dive. Guess what... both of use have deep cards! The class got much better to include a night dive when it wasn't dark out ("Well it's really a 'night & limited vis' class so we did the limited vis part") because the instructors thought he could get two dives out of one tank. By the time he figured out he was wrong the fill station had closed.

It didn't take me long to realized that I got <deleted>. When I got home my wife expected me to be all excited after a couple days of diving, but I was pissed. I couldn't believe this sh*t was going to pass as an AOW class. The next day I went to the shop to return gear I had rent and expressed my frustration to the instructor. He replied that he couldn't accomplish everything he wanted to because the other student "M" and I hadn't been very good students. Surprisingly enough this was believable. At one point "M" had gotten stuck under a platform because he lost all control of his buoyancy. The same thing happened later (luckily he grabbed a tree because there wasn't a platform around) and the instructor had to dump air from his BC for him. So yes, I could see why we might not have been able to accomplish everything planned. I asked my instructor if I could tag along with his next class because I didn't feel comfortable and want to get some more experience. He waffled for a while and didn't really want me to come. I guess he didn't want the liability of a poorly trained diver tagging along!

This rant illustrates several things:
- There are bad instructors out there. Often times a new diver won't know the difference. I doubt a lot of would-be divers hang out here enough the know they need to be on the lookout. Sure some do but most don't.
- There are bad divers out there. That knucklehead in my class who got stuck under the platform is a card carrying Advanced diver. And he doesn't know he's a bad diver.

- There are good divers despite this. Some people like Popeye can get certified in a weekend, then do 150 dives a year and become great divers. Other people take more time. But that doesn't mean we need an underwater police force.

- There are divers who are "OK". I think there are a lot of diver like me. People that feel they got shafted but blame themselves more then they blame the "system".

Cornfed

 

[Genesis]

there are divers, like me and perhaps you, who got the AOW card not to really be advanced, but because some day on vacation we may want to dive a site that some idiot op won't take us to without it.

I knew when I got out of my OW class what the basic game was - just enough to not commit suicide, now go out there and dive a lot.

Ok. I did. I am. I got my Nitrox cert so I could buy Nitrox - not so I knew how it worked (I can do basic 4-function math!) I got my AOW so if I go down the Keys, and want to "do the Grove", I can get on a boat and do so. I'll take a print out of my Suunto's log too, so that Mr. Op can see that yes, indeed, I have made many, many dives below 100', and many dives in the last year, and card or no, its ok - but the card is his "insurance" (literally for his insurance carrier in most cases, I suspect!)

More cards? Why? I was going to take Rescue, just for myself, but the only instructor around here who I like a lot strongly discourged me from doing it in a BP+W. So much for that. I'll just go dive some more. Hell, I can buy a LOT of electricity and a few filter cartridges for my compressor for what I would have paid for that class. Screw 'em.

Will I take "advanced Nitrox" and "deco procedures"? Maybe. The better question - from where? I'd rather pay a real instructor privately, but the agencies are more and more having a cat about "private" instruction. Oh well. I may take the progression of cave diving classes, but it won't be with GUE, and that's not due to their class, but rather their politics in the industry and their dripping hypocrisy.

 

[cornfed]

Genesis once bubbled...
there are divers, like me and perhaps you, who got the AOW card not to really be advanced, but because some day on vacation we may want to dive a site that some idiot op won't take us to without it.

I got mine because I had just moved and I thought it would be a good way to meet other divers and learn about local sites. We all make mistakes, right?

I knew when I got out of my OW class what the basic game was - just enough to not commit suicide, now go out there and dive a lot.

Two friends of mine got certified and I thought, "great, two new dive buddies!" We went diving right after their class and had a couple of problems. Nothing serious just newbie stuff. They mentioned something when returning their gear (to the shop they got certified at) and guess what, "you know... we're offering an advanced class that starts next week. It will make you a better diver and more comfortable in the water!"

Ok. I did. I am. I got my Nitrox cert so I could buy Nitrox - not so I knew how it worked (I can do basic 4-function math!) I got my AOW so if I go down the Keys, and want to "do the Grove", I can get on a boat and do so. I'll take a print out of my Suunto's log too, so that Mr. Op can see that yes, indeed, I have made many, many dives below 100', and many dives in the last year, and card or no, its ok - but the card is his "insurance" (literally for his insurance carrier in most cases, I suspect!)

Here's a good one for you... I was in St. Lucia and the diver op wanted to see my c-card. I handed them my AOW card because it was the first one I found. They were confused because it says "diving since..." instead of the date the card was issued which is was I put on waiver form. I scratched out the date on the form and went diving.

More cards? Why? I was going to take Rescue, just for myself, but the only instructor around here who I like a lot strongly discourged me from doing it in a BP+W. So much for that. I'll just go dive some more. Hell, I can buy a LOT of electricity and a few filter cartridges for my compressor for what I would have paid for that class. Screw 'em.

Will I take "advanced Nitrox" and "deco procedures"? Maybe. The better question - from where? I'd rather pay a real instructor privately, but the agencies are more and more having a cat about "private" instruction.

My cavern class turned out to be private. Two other people had signed up but they got deployed (Something about a war in a desert?). Enjoyed all the extra attention, but I would have enjoyed another student to fumble around with. So I would recommend a "semi-private" class instead.

Oh well. I may take the progression of cave diving classes, but it won't be with GUE, and that's not due to their class, but rather their politics in the industry and their dripping hypocrisy.

Now, now... no cheap shots...

Cornfed

 

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis once bubbled...
there are divers, like me and perhaps you, who got the AOW card not to really be advanced, but because some day on vacation we may want to dive a site that some idiot op won't take us to without it.

I knew when I got out of my OW class what the basic game was - just enough to not commit suicide, now go out there and dive a lot.

This kind of makes my point as far as our disagreements on the issue. This is often exactly what the game is but not with all instructors. Some students can buy the card and teach themselves later and some can't. Some understand the game going in and some don't. If a diver wants to buy a card that's one thing but if they are conned into believing they are buying training that's something else.

Will I take "advanced Nitrox" and "deco procedures"? Maybe. The better question - from where? I'd rather pay a real instructor privately, but the agencies are more and more having a cat about "private" instruction. Oh well. I may take the progression of cave diving classes, but it won't be with GUE, and that's not due to their class, but rather their politics in the industry and their dripping hypocrisy.

I only know of one agency that has a problem with independant instructors and that's SSI. When it comes to technical training there are probably more who are independant than not. I know a bunch of tech instructors who refuse to teach for shops because of the insistance that they give cards away. With a little research you should be able to find an instructor who really does the kind of diving they're teaching.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis, a not about tech instructors...

As an example of how some instructors oporate I have two that I send students to. Both stoped teaching for shops long ago. One will teach for me. In other words I set up the class, I assist with the class (I have a card that says I can) and I get part of the money. He only does this because I haven't yet set him up with any students who weren't ready. Also if he does an assesment dive with a prospective student and sends them home to practice the basics some more, he gets no complaints from me (and I get a mark against me). The decision is his and the student gets their money back. The day I insist he give a card away so we can keep the money he'll drop me like a hot potato.

The other is totally independant and won't even teach for me. If I send him a student I get nothing and the class details and the fees are strictly between the student and him. After many years of working with shops who sell cards this is the only way he works. I still give out his number. BTW, he was my cave instructor.

You don't see this often in recreational diving where the goal is always to hand out more cards this week than you did last week. These are the instructors who walked away from the recreational industry out of frustration.