A deep systemic problem with diver ed?

[Grajan]

"Become a [much] better diver in just one weekend. Learn how to use a dive computer, dive local ship wrecks, navigate on the 2nd and 3rd reefs, dive at night, dive deep, find and raise "treasure"... in just one weekend of diving!"

Suprised they left out the caves - what are they going to do on Sunday?.....

 

[Gr8fldiver]

Pilots are LICENCED by the FAA. You CAN NOT legally climb into an aircraft and fly it. Dive certification is an industry standard with the express purpose to make money for the agency. There is no LEGAL requirement that you be certified. There is NO law that says you can't buy air or equipment or dive to 1000 feet.

 

[Grajan]

There is absolutely no reason why a 'self regulating' activity cannot adopt some of the good elements of a legislated system, such as independent review and oversight.

Will they? - I doubt it - but there is nothing preventing it.

 

[TCDiver1]

MASS-Diver once bubbled...

.... snip
Real divers know PADIs' standards are a joke.
.....Snip

Wow! .... guess i haven't been a "real diver" for the last 25 years. Bummer. ;-0

 

[DSJ]

Gr8fldiver once bubbled...
Pilots are LICENCED by the FAA. You CAN NOT legally climb into an aircraft and fly it. Dive certification is an industry standard with the express purpose to make money for the agency. There is no LEGAL requirement that you be certified. There is NO law that says you can't buy air or equipment or dive to 1000 feet.

True, though such activity is regulated as much by the fact a person without the skills KNOWS they can't fly a plane. If they try, they don't get far. (Despite being a license, the FAA still calls it a certificate). And while there is no law that says you can't dive without training, the opportunity is greatly reduced if most shops and dive operations require it. It lets folks know it is considered important even if a determined person can get around it.

Most folks know they need instruction before diving. A few might be sure they can do it all themselves, but the majority would seek some instruction. Mikes point is well taken however. They look to the industry to tell them how much training is enough to get started and to keep diving. They are not being given a proper answer. Compared to flying it is deceptively easy to dive, but that is all the more reason to let folks know they don't have it all from BOW.

David

 

[cornfed]

Walter once bubbled...

Confidence building skills are still employed by some of the agencies.

Having someone swim around a pool sharing air without a mask and pushing someone so they learn their personal limit are two totally different things. The later does not happen.

EMS now has better response times and better equi[pment and training than 30 years ago.

What does that have to do thing with anything?

Most DM's have become baby sitters, watching their charges extremely carefully because they know the divers are incompetent.

Apparently you and I don't dive with the same divemasters. I only saw this happen when I was in the Carribean and I don't have enough experience down their to say if it is common or not.

"Thinking that you can teach someone not to panic in 8 (or whatever) pool and confined water sessions is also pretty nifty."

You can either lay the basics or ignore it completely. I prefer not to ignore the problem.

I think you're deluding yourself as to the effectiveness of many of these drills. Popeye isn't ignoring them, he's saying what is currently done doesn't work.

Cornfed

 

[cornfed]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

Stupidity may kill or injure some but I'm more inclined to refer to them as ignorant than stupid. There are many ignorant divers. They're not stupid but some will be hurt anyway.

I used to want to blame the training agencies and watered down standards for everything but I'm having a harder and harder time doing so.

Let me share two examples....

First, a couple of weeks ago when I was at the quarry with two friends "Td" and "Tr". Td and I just bought compasses so we were eager to try some navigating. We talked about our course, took some bearings and dropped under water. Td was supposed to lead use out and Tr and I would follow. Before I knew it Td was not only headed in the wrong direction, but headed deeper then he should have. He never took his eyes off his compass to look at Tr and I and just swam off. He did this again on another dive. Was this because he had poor training? No. He was taught all the same buddy awareness crap everyone else here was. He did it because he was too busy with his new toy. Nothing whatsoever to do with training or stardards.

Second, I took a cavern class back in January. Before one of our dives we were in the water waiting for some other students to get in. While waiting my instructor struck up a conversation with two full cave certified divers who were finishing their dive. The pair in question was so excited when because they had just come back from a very long penetration (some milestone that means something to cavers). They had been using scooters. My instructor asked them very calmly, “have you ever swam that far before?” They just looked at him blankly. He then asked, “if you scooter had failed, could you have swam out?” It was obvious that they had never thought of this. These were two FULL CAVE CERTIFIED DIVERS! Have the cave standards dropped too? No, they maintained a continuous guideline, took 3 lights and all the other equipment cavers are brow-beat into using. Then the rode their scooters till they had used 1/3 of their air then turned around and came back. They did everything like they were trained to do. What they didn’t do was think.

You can’t teach people how to think. You certainly can (and should!) tell them everything they need to think about, you just can’t make them think about it.

Cornfed

 

[Walter]

cornfed,

I'm not talking about swimming around without a mask. As far as I'm aware, none of the agencies have eliminated that requirement - yet.

"What does that have to do thing with anything?"

Merely pointing out that even if his numbers had any meaning (which they don't) there are many different reasons why death rates aren't going up. I don't believe death rates are a good indicator of the problems in dive training. Rates pulled out of the air aren't good indicators of anything.

"I think you're deluding yourself as to the effectiveness of many of these drills."

You can "think" anything you like, but that doesn't make it so. I've seen divers who have not mastered basic skills (most divers) when they encounter problems. I've also seen divers who have mastered basic skills encounter problems. There is a big difference.

 

[cornfed]

Walter once bubbled...

I'm not talking about swimming around without a mask. As far as I'm aware, none of the agencies have eliminated that requirement - yet.

That was just the first comfort/confidence thing that came to my head.

"What does that have to do thing with anything?"

Merely pointing out that even if his numbers had any meaning (which they don't) there are many different reasons why death rates aren't going up. I don't believe death rates are a good indicator of the problems in dive training. Rates pulled out of the air aren't good indicators of anything.

After looking at things agian I realized you might mean faster and better EMS care could save some people that might otherwise not make it. Hadn't thought about this... hmmm... My gut reaction says, "no, the sites are still too remote." but that might just be the places I'm diving.

"I think you're deluding yourself as to the effectiveness of many of these drills."

You can "think" anything you like, but that doesn't make it so. I've seen divers who have not mastered basic skills (most divers) when they encounter problems. I've also seen divers who have mastered basic skills encounter problems. There is a big difference.

I've seen people very cool when all hell is breaking loose around them. It may be an entirely new situation for them but they know how to handle stress. You don't teach that. That said, I agree that having a master of the basics will definately help.

 

[Popeye]

Walter once bubbled...
cornfed,

I'm not talking about swimming around without a mask. As far as I'm aware, none of the agencies have eliminated that requirement - yet.

"What does that have to do thing with anything?"

Merely pointing out that even if his numbers had any meaning (which they don't) there are many different reasons why death rates aren't going up. I don't believe death rates are a good indicator of the problems in dive training. Rates pulled out of the air aren't good indicators of anything.

Any numbers you choose bring the same conclusion.

Only a MINUTE fraction of divers are injured or killed every year, lending no creedence to your theory that there's a systemwide failure endemic to lower standards.

Speaking of pulling information out of thin air and posting it on the internet, how's that lawsuit with PADI going?