A compassionate instructor

[Coldwater_Canuck]

Qualified and certified are not the same thing. There is (and unwarranted) assumption that certified is qualified, but there is no such assumption that not-certified is, by definition, not qualified.

I agree in general terms, but I feel a court may want more than that. Certification at least shows some proof that you know what you're talking about. In an industry that is largely self regulated, it is as close to a legal document (say a drivers license to dive) as there is. If someone walks in with a cert card to rent gear, I give it to him, and he decides to dive to 300 feet and drown, I'm pretty sure no judge or jury could find me liable (I'm not sure exactly what I did wrong). But if in an industry where certification is the standard (and the lawyer will argue this point) I give out this gear and the guy kills himself, now the plaintiff probably has a solid case.

There is no way to make yourself not-liable (even being a dive buddy could get you sued), but I certainly wouldn't want to do anything that puts a target on my back.

In the case I personally know, all the "guilty" party did was say "yes" when someone asked to go swimming off their dock. Next thing, they owe that someone thousands of dollars. It doesn't take much ...

The shops establish the test, the "standard of practice in the community." If all shops rented without training there would be no liability. Either the shops are greedy, stupid or just stuck ... take your choice.

I think if all shops rented without training, I think the government would step in with their own regulations. The governments accept self regulation because in general it's worked decent, but I don't think you'd have many countries with no regulation.

 

[Scubaman7596]

Here Ye Here Ye,

All Rise, The Honorable Cyber Scuba cops of the 3rd Riecht. you may sit.

Having here by Judged an Instructor, A Man and his son as incompentent fools.

As a result of their incompentence a Small boy has had an incredible time and is more motivated than ever to get certified.

This is completley unacceptable as found here forth with multiple " What If scenieros" as pertaining to standards from what ever training agency the instructor and father are associated with.

The sentence for this is as follows

1." Do not ever post anything in these forums, that could get you judge"

2. The Honorable Cyber Scuba cops of the 3rd Riecht are watching you. They will here by stay on this thread and continuously drill and shove down your throat many " what if my aunt had testicles, she would be my uncle scenerios" which means absolutley nothing to anybody except for themselves. for the sake of padding there own ego on who is right or wrong.( woof woof) Because they have nothing better to do and they sure as heck are not scuba diving. ( I get grumpy too when that happens).

3. They will stay here for an undetermined amount of time, Probably untill some other petty misdameanor happens. and they feel the need to quote " Mien Kampf" at that poor unfortunate soul. Sorry Incompentent fool.

4. You must go back to this Instructor and demand a full refund for your son's suprise free lesson that was not taught to standards of what ever training agency or to the standards of The Honorable Cyber Scuba cops of the 3rd Riecht.


5. You must work diligentley with your son in order to pass this swim so that you may return him to this incompent "mere human" instructor and so that he can teach him Scuba diving and your son may one day in the near future be a Jr certified diver/ Aquaholic . Oh yeah you also have to buy your instructor friend a beer after that too.

6. teach your son's, wife, and anyone you know, The IMPORTANCE of what The Honorable Cyber Scuba cops of the 3rd Riecht have taught you through out this thread.

Now let the punishment Resume.

And you should take it like a man, since you deserve it.

 

[Paladin]

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

Having here by Judged an Instructor, A Man and his son as incompentent fools.

I've never seen an online forum where so many members seem to have a fetish for straw men

 

[DaleC]

I've always thought that diving, at its core, requires individuals to be able to make personal risk assessments and to act accordingly. This is why old time divers and diving intrigues me so much. They had to be, for the most part, "thinking" divers.

I want/need to be a thinking diver so of course I gravitate towards guidance from other like minded divers.

It is interesting to note that as diving has become more mainstream this is the one skillset that seems to have atrophied. Independant evaluation is set aside in favor of standardization. This is particularily true because some agencies want to maximize profit by certification volume (of instructors as well as students) instead of insisting on quality.

Using guidelines sensibly can make a situation safe but blindly following them is a great way to avoid practicing personal responsability. Create an atmosphere where instructors are unable or afraid to act independantly and what have you got? A system that pumps out "certified" divers that don't know how to think. A great way to avoid addressing this defect is by suggesting they dive with a DM or take another course.

Some people fear liability but in diving I fear people who fear liability (go figure). They are the ones that will stand around and do nothing at an accident scene because they might get sued. Give me someone less "legit" who can think on their feet anyday.

 

[lord.harshil]

Explain to us how that is not possible.

"Embolize in four feet of water?" Who came up with this? Drown maybe, but embolize? Gimme a break.

I think the "swim test" is a bunch of useless crap which keeps a lot of wannabe divers from going diving. You are not going swimming, you are going diving. If you have one or two legs with fin(s) on you can get back to the boat or shore.

Garrobo, I disagree. You can get an embolism in 1.5m of water. Its there in the book and I remember verifying this online. Hold a lung full of air at 4' at come up to the surface without exhaling and there is a high chance you will get an embolsim. Embolism is another type of overexpansion injury arising from the increase in DIFFERENCE in pressure in the air in your lungs and your body. There are 4 main types of overexpansion injuries, go search it up on google.

If you're a weak swimmer, you cant swim back to the boat in strong current. I passed all the DM swim tests with a 3 or more and there was once when I found myself completely exhausted after swimming back to the boat against a current. A weak swimmer, or even worse, a non swimmer will not be able to swim back in anything more slight current and in the ocean, unfortunately, you can be washed miles offshore. I personally know people who were afloat and washed off. They waited for about 10 hours before the chopper found them.

Standards are there for a reason and my argument in this thread has not been at all to abolish standards.

If the techies will allow me to quote their favourite saying, I like to "use my most critical piece of equipment : my brain". If you see an obese 50 year old smoker, technically PADI says its fine for him to dive. But if you see a 9 year old who is well trained well built can handle rigors of diving blah blah perfect student, he is not allowed to dive in the pool just because he is 2 months short of his birthday.

Trusting your life and your students' life to a few lines in the book is as stupid as relying completely on a dive computer. Just as your dive computer can fail, there are certain cases in which the almighty "standards" may not apply or need to be tweaked. If some people are going to be so closed to this option as to insist that we must follow the standards without any deviation, then I hereby coin the term Standards N@zi (has this been coined before btw?) and brand these people Standards N@zis and burn them at the stake

Yes yes I'm kidding about the "offensive" terms (rolls eyes), keep your panties on you little girls.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

I've always thought that diving, at its core, requires individuals to be able to make personal risk assessments and to act accordingly. This is why old time divers and diving intrigues me so much. They had to be, for the most part, "thinking" divers.

I want/need to be a thinking diver so of course I gravitate towards guidance from other like minded divers.

True, but I don't think this is unique to diving. Whenever something becomes mainstream it tends to get standards applied to this. While you're right there are downsides, I think overall it's a positive (risk assessment can be difficult). Imagine just removing one set of standards: depth limits: let people progress through depths at their own pace. In theory, I'd say this is a great, people would be able to progress at a pace that is right for them, not what their cert-card says. But in practice, many people won't be good judges and make fatal mistakes: they may not realize the risk that comes with diving below 100 feet, etc even if you "teach" it to them well.

It's kind of the same argument for and against speed limits. People against them say "people aren't complete idiots and tend to go a reasonable speed even if there were no laws". I can see the point, but I probably wouldn't advocate getting rid of speed limits.

Using guidelines sensibly can make a situation safe but blindly following them is a great way to avoid practicing personal responsability. Create an atmosphere where instructors are unable or afraid to act independantly and what have you got? A system that pumps out "certified" divers that don't know how to think. A great way to avoid addressing this defect is by suggesting they dive with a DM or take another course.

I don't think that follows. Probably the agency with the most stringent instructor requirements and the most little leeway for individuals (GUE) is also one that promotes thinking divers and doesn't just pump out c-cards.

And in fact, I'd argue the opposite. Not that too many standards are the problem, but that the standards are too low. I'd like to see PADI include a solid portion on gas management, more things about diving in cold water, better info on DCS, etc. as part of their "standards". Some teachers teach above the standards and this is good in my opinion, but maybe if it was part of the standards, they all would?

Some people fear liability but in diving I fear people who fear liability (go figure). They are the ones that will stand around and do nothing at an accident scene because they might get sued. Give me someone less "legit" who can think on their feet anyday.

I don't think many people would not help out in an emergency because they are afraid of getting sued. This is, in my opinion, an incompatible comparison to the situation discussed here. I'd never watch someone die becuase of the very, very small chance someone would sue and an even smaller chance they would win.

However, on the other hand let's say a friend who is an experienced diver but never got certified wants me to get him air fills (since he can't) for him. I wouldn't do it, I'm not placing myself in that liable position. If something did happen, there is a reasonable chance I could be sued and a reasonable chance they would win. Also, the upside of helping him out just isn't that great (make him a little happy).

 

[I Dive]

I've heard and seen many people talk about how people are advancing into the professional levels of diving before they are ready. This thread has gone a long way in proving that exactly right. There is one basic element of being a dive pro that many posters to this thread seem to lack-being mature and professional enough to uphold the standards of the agency you CHOOSE to represent. It doesn't matter if you agree with those standards, it doesn't matter if you feel you have a better way, they are the standards of the agency you CHOOSE to represent. If you feel so strongly about those standards being wrong or whatever that you will find yourself not following them, then you need to make the decision to NOT represent that agency. Find another agency you agree with, start your own agency, whatever. To say an Instructor can make a judgement call to allow an untrained person to conduct a DSD is simply ridicilous. I challenge any Instructor who feels that is OK to publish their name, agency affiliation, and certification number along with a statement declaring that very thing. "My name is Billy Bob and I am PADI Instructor XXXXXX. At my discretion, I will hand dive gear to an uncertified diver and allow them to SCUBA dive on it under the supervision of whoever I feel should be supervising them, regardless of the certification level of the person doing the supervising. I will do this because I am experienced enough to make this judgement call".

 

[lord.harshil]

You are wrong. Either a professional acts like one or they don't. It's hard to tell people to obey their training and the standards when they don't model it themselves.

I'll be frank with you. I did not become a DM because I love teaching and it was one step on the way to becoming an instructor. I'm going to get flak for what I am about to say but quite frankly, its an internet forum and while I appreciate everyone's input, I have the awesome option of not giving a damn. I became a DM to get free dives. I'm not a rich student and I cant afford to pay a couple of hundred bucks every time I want to go diving. I worked in a shop for a while so that I could dive and I became a DM so I could dive and if the catch was having to take care of people, thats fine by me. I don't ignore the divers under my care and I take good care of them to the best of my abilities. But the underlying reason to become a DM? free dives. I happen to be a DM who does not appreciate PADI standards and believe me, the minute I have enough funds to flip a bird at PADI and walk off, I will. For now, I do it the way they like me to do it, demonstrating ridiculous fin pivot in refreshers instead of practicing trim together with the students.

If you are going to pick and choose which rules you follow of the agency you chose to represent as a DM, a professional rating, then you shouldn't be one. Do I agree with all the standards of my agency? No. But I am professional enough and I like my reputation enough, not to break them.

You do it your way, I will do it my way. Despite having extensive knowledge, you choose to stick to the standards by an agency that clearly doesnt give a hoot except when it comes to making money. I choose to use that knowledge and make reasonable decisions. The world isnt black and white but its difficult to explain the gray area in the OW manual, so PADI makes it black and white. If I take one step into PADI's black area does that mean I will die and kill someone with me? No.

No he's not. An awesome instructor would have waited until the pool session was through with his students, and then taken the kid himself. Standards not breached, kid has a phenomenal time, and instructor is a rock star. No charge, no card, just a try-dive within standards and showing proper safety training.

There's another thread right now about a 12 year old newly certed diver whose mom took him on his first dive to 120ft, took on a night dive, where newly OW certed dad lost him, he had to be assisted by a dm because of in-water exhaustion, and Mom thought it was great. If someone doesn't model obeying training and rules, then it just continues.

Perhaps there was a better way for the instructor to do this. If I were him, I might not have allowed the kid to dive if for nothing else, then for the liability. Or I could've thought, what the heck, my dive buddy of over 20 years in supervising him, I can trust him. Go ahead and brand him evil, I think it depends on a case by case basis.

My bone to pick is not with this case, its with the idea that some people consider the standards their bible. I say learn the standards, gain the knowledge behind them and decide for yourself if it is reasonable to ignore some of them on a case by case basis.

If zendiver feels that she does not want to violate any standards under any scenario AND she uses her own discretion to deny divers she feels are unfit to dive, then her dive centre probably has a very low rate of accidents. In my case, I would exercise my own judgement, deny the same divers she denies based on her judgement but I may not deny a diver who feels like a perfect diver to me just because there happens to be a rule in the book which says he can't dive.

Case in point, my younger brother. He is 6' 4" tall and he is 14 years of age. Good swimmer, very well developed mentally and has proven not to panic underwater when his rental equipment screwed up and quit delivering air. He swam over to me and took my octo without panicking to the surface. Would I refuse to bring him down to 18m just because PADI says JOW can only go to 12m? No. Zendiver would insist that this would be flouting the rules in her diving bible and shun me and my brother like the plague.

Remind me not to dive with you. You might refuse to give me your octo if I dont make the OOA please share air signs :mooner:

 

[lord.harshil]

I've heard and seen many people talk about how people are advancing into the professional levels of diving before they are ready. This thread has gone a long way in proving that exactly right. There is one basic element of being a dive pro that many posters to this thread seem to lack-being mature and professional enough to uphold the standards of the agency you CHOOSE to represent. It doesn't matter if you agree with those standards, it doesn't matter if you feel you have a better way, they are the standards of the agency you CHOOSE to represent. If you feel so strongly about those standards being wrong or whatever that you will find yourself not following them, then you need to make the decision to NOT represent that agency. Find another agency you agree with, start your own agency, whatever. To say an Instructor can make a judgement call to allow an untrained person to conduct a DSD is simply ridicilous. I challenge any Instructor who feels that is OK to publish their name, agency affiliation, and certification number along with a statement declaring that very thing. "My name is Billy Bob and I am PADI Instructor XXXXXX. At my discretion, I will hand dive gear to an uncertified diver and allow them to SCUBA dive on it under the supervision of whoever I feel should be supervising them, regardless of the certification level of the person doing the supervising. I will do this because I am experienced enough to make this judgement call".

Financial constraints my friend, what can i say. Read the above post. Like I said, I follow the rules most of the time, its once in a blue moon when the standards feel completely idiotic to follow and at those times, I make up my own mind.

I dont openly flout the agency standards trying to be a rebel within the ranks. A professional rating, to me, is just another cert card. There can be effing lousy OWSIs and there can very good, very experienced mentors who I can learn from who aren't anything more than OW divers.

A DM rating, a OWSI rating, a whatever rating, is a means to an end. How many people actually became instructors because they loved TEACHING? And how many more became instructors to feed themselves, or to be able to live their lives diving?

There can be a darn good instructor who chooses to edit the standards to come up with a better guideline in the location where he teaches. Can you label him unprofessional just because he doesnt follow all the standards to a T?

If you can, please label me unprofessional too. I'll proudly wear that badge.