A compassionate instructor

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That's fine, IN the situation you describe YOU decide and become the certifying agency In the situation the OP laid out, the instructor HAS agreed to the authority of the agency that gave him the credentials to teach, and submit to their standards, and I am not going to get into the differences between agencies, but I doubt that anyone of them allow an instructor to hand SCUBA gear to a non certified diver and let a person not set in a supervisory role with their agency take them in the pool or wherever. The proper way to have done this, is either before the class, or after the class the INSTRUCTOR take the kid under and be with him while he tried SCUBA. NOTHING CONFUSING ABOUT IT
Horse pucky ... neither the adult nor the child was enrolled in an agency sponsored program. Agencies do not control our lives (much as they'd like to) they only dictate what must be done with respect to programs that are being run under their ageis.
 
:popcorn:
Wow! we're up to 142 posts/15 pages. I haven't seen so much pontificating in a long time. Must've struck some nerves!

I love a parade!
 
Horse pucky ... neither the adult nor the child was enrolled in an agency sponsored program. Agencies do not control our lives (much as they'd like to) they only dictate what must be done with respect to programs that are being run under their ageis.

That sounds great, but I am going to throw the big "what if" at you, would you feel the same way IF something had happened to the boy? It is easy to say they weren't doing anything that falls under the purview of an agency, but as an instructor, and since he was there teaching a class, I would have advised doing it the way I said it before, I stand by that no matter what your expert opinion may be.
 
Hypotheticals are usually rather irrelevant, but if you read the thread you'll note I already answered that question.
 
On this, we will agree to disagree, standards are there for the hypotheticals, but since you are your own certifying body, you set your standards on what you believe the probabilities and risks involved.
 
The fallacy in what you're preaching is in the assumption that without agency standards instructors are, "doing whatever the Hell they want, following whichever standards are convenient for them and disregarding whichever are not ..." This I think is quite incorrect. Despite my being recruited (because of my specific expertise) to produce a full revision of NAUI's standards, from top to bottom, throughout my career I have been bound not by standards but by the monthly review of my actions and decisions by a group of experts (a university Diving Control Board - DCB) and I never injured or killed anyone, nor have any of my appointees.

Those individuals whom I select to teach others to dive, have no certification by any agency, they are approved, after the fact, by the DCB and a university Vice President/Provost. But I select them, I train them, I evaluate them, I decide to invite them back to the next class and when required, I discipline them and remove them from teaching situations.

Similarly, I approve certain divers to dive with less qualified divers, in the role of a mentor, Diving Supervisor or Specialty Instructor; again, there is no "agency" involved. That's where I'm coming from. I am able to do this (and people like me have been doing this since 1952 with a virtually perfect safety record) because I am an expert. The bottom line of being an expert is that he or she, "no longer needs to rely on rules, guidelines or maxims and posses an authoritative knowledge of the disciplines that make up diving that leads to a deep tacit understanding of, as well as a holistic and intuitive grasp of situations." Thus the odds are that the judgments an expert makes are spot on, even when they run counter to rules, guidelines or maxims that are needed to keep risks at an acceptable level for the Proficient or merely Competent Instructors who make up most of the population.

Now let's go back to my first post in this thread:


If you're still confused, here are the definitions that I use as a basis.

Although I am generally suspect of anyone who declares themself an expert on anything, if what you say in this post plus your profile is correct, I don't have any problem saying that you have an impressive resume that I respect. That doesn't mean we will always agree, but if for example, NAUI asked you to assist in writing standards that clearly shows you know one or two things about diving and teaching it. However, I also think this is where irony enters the conversation. By accepting NAUI's request and assisting in or even directly writing standards, it seems to me by default you have agreed that standards are necessary and have an important place in instruction. Am I wrong on that conclusion? I've recently (very recently) started researching the differences between NAUI and PADI and so far have learned (from NAUI instructors I have spoken with) that NAUI sets minimums but does not deter an instructor from going above and beyond those minimums as long as the minimum is adhered to and satisfied. But, there are absolutely minimum standards with that agency.

Without going into hypotheticals or anything else, given your stated b/g in the formulating of NAUI standards at one point, what is your response to this direct question:

How do you feel about a NAUI Instructor disregarding a minimum standard established by NAUI while conducting a NAUI class because he/she feels it is wrong, irrelevant, stupid, or whatever?

I'm not even trying to compare this to the OP that started this debate, and before anyone blows up, no I do not know what, if any, agency the Instructor the OP referred to is part of. I'm curious on your thoughts on this based on what I've seen many people claim in this thread, that standards can and should be tossed out the door at an Instructor's discretion. Don't answer this question as-if you are the instructor, obviously the person who writes the book can change the pages whenever they want. I am referring to an Instructor who has joined NAUI and agreed to train in their system, and issue certifications under NAUI authority (for lack of a better phrase).
 
:popcorn:
Wow! we're up to 142 posts/15 pages. I haven't seen so much pontificating in a long time. Must've struck some nerves!

I love a parade!

Imagine if the kid was wearing webbed gloves!
 
Perhaps it's worth pointing out that at no point in this discussion has it been mentioned which agency the instructor was working for.

Might that not be relevent to what standards were broken ... or not?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I don't know what agency this Instructor was with, but PADI requires close supervision of a DSD. There is actually a question regarding proximity to the PADI pro on the DSD knowledge and safety review. I'd post the actual question but I don't feel that is professional. Like I said, I don't know what agency this Instructor is with, but can anyone list for me an agency that does not require close supervision for a DSD?

I really don't care which agency. In my opinion this thread has become more about the responsibilities of the instructor. Many have stated that the instructor broke standards. This is a simple question. What are those standards? If you are a PADI instructor (or whatever agency you represent), what are the documented PADI standards for the conduct of one of their instructors in this case. I am not an instructor and don't care to be one. But this case has me intrigued. Actually I'd love for a response about each agency. I bet Walter could give me the answer.
 
I really don't care which agency. In my opinion this thread has become more about the responsibilities of the instructor. Many have stated that the instructor broke standards. This is a simple question. What are those standards? If you are a PADI instructor (or whatever agency you represent), what are the documented PADI standards for the conduct of one of their instructors in this case. I am not an instructor and don't care to be one. But this case has me intrigued. Actually I'd love for a response about each agency. I bet Walter could give me the answer.

I'd be curious to see what NAUI, SSI, SDI, and SEI require as well. I think I covered PADI, unless of course you think I made up my answer...
 
I'd be curious to see what NAUI, SSI, SDI, and SEI require as well. I think I covered PADI, unless of course you think I made up my answer...

I'm curious too, and I am not questioning your answer, but I'm the type that likes to see the actual regulation.
 

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