A compassionate instructor

[Zieg]

I'm OK with 16. "Old enough to learn to drive" is close enough.

Terry

Cool, because by 11 my father taught me to drive.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'm OK with 16. "Old enough to learn to drive" is close enough.

Terry

When I was a DM I mentored a pair of 12-year old girls who had just gotten certified. At no time did I ever see either one of them do anything even close to irresponsible ... in fact, they were far more responsible and eager to learn than many ... if not most ... adults I've since worked with.

One of those two girls has gone on to become quite the diver ... exceeding even the ability and experience of the instructor who taught her to dive. She has the drive and smarts to perhaps become the next Jill Heinerth.

Imagine what she'd be today if she'd been denied the opportunity to dive until she was 16.

The problem I see with the majority of scuba instructors today is that they have a tremendous capacity for underestimating the ability ... and potential ... of their students.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DCBC]

Might it be that this father knows his child better than we do? Well enough, perhaps, to have decided that he could handle the responsibility of using scuba equipment in a pool ... under the supervision of a parent who, in all likelihood, knows more about scuba diving than a significant percentage of diving instructors out there today?

Absolutely Bob, but you miss my point. It's not the father, rather than the Instructor who's actions I disagree with. The father could (as a certified diver) rent equipment and take his son to a friend's pool at any time. He chose to bring him to a pool that was rented/managed by an Instructor giving a SCUBA training session. This puts the Instructor in the driver's seat, not the father. The Instructor has signed an agreement to teach in accordance with his agencies standards (insurance). Any breach of these standards invalidates the insurance policy, he becomes no longer sanctioned by his training agency and if you check the fine print, likely breaches the pool rental agreement (if this is applicable). Moreover, he puts the shop he's teaching for open to litigation in case of injury, if this was the case.

 

[Web Monkey]

Thank goodness my 11 yr old finally learned about Santa. I was always conflicted when teaching him about Boyles law and still telling him that if he doesn't believe, Santa won't come to the house...

I think my kid understands about holding his breath as well as he understands that riding his bike into a tree will cause injury.

The difference is he's your kid, not mine. If you mess him up, that's between you and him. You're more than welcome to assume any level of risk you wish.

Terry

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Absolutely Bob, but you miss my point. It's not the father, rather than the Instructor who's actions I disagree with. Often people TRUST the Instructor. The father could (as a certified diver) rent equipment and take his son to a friend's pool at any time. He chose to bring him to a pool that was rented/managed by an Instructor giving a SCUBA training session. This puts the Instructor in the driver's seat, not the father.

Seems to me that by getting in the water with his own kid, this father was not putting his trust in the scuba instructor, but rather taking the responsibility for the safety of his child on himself.

From a safety perspective, the venue is less relevent than the supervision. From a liability perspective, I can see your point ... but is liability really the issue being discussed here?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[lord.harshil]

It has to do with insecurity and lack of expertise. A true expert knows, as I pointed out, when to apply some formulaic construct and when to ignore it, but that takes far more knowledge and experience than is found amongst most diving instructors today.
I am happy to say that at my discretion, I will hand dive gear to an uncertified diver and allow them to SCUBA dive on it under the supervision of whomever I feel should be supervising them, regardless of the certification level of the person doing the supervising. I will do this because I am experienced enough to make this judgement call. Major universities, the National Science Foundation, and many other organizations have trusted me, for many years, to do exactly that. Would I grant the same authority to anyone who, taking your example, has a PADI Instructor Card? Of course not, but I can name at least two PADI instructors whom I have granted such a privilege to.

Thank you for putting in words part of what I was trying to say before I got all hot headed :fire:

I'm nowhere as experienced as 90% of the divers here and I'm hardly the person to start mocking standards that were made by divers who were teaching before I was born, but like I said, some just leave me befuddled.

You guys are right, PADI has terrible standards. I could name you countless examples I've personally seen in my less than 100 dives where supposedly AOWs shot up after panicking, instructors froze in fear when a person fell of the boat and ended up getting minced while his first time DM jumped in to save the victim (I wasnt this DM btw). japanese rescue divers who dont know how to fix the reg on the tank (i'm friggin serious) etc etc. Perhaps its time to venture to GUE. I'd rather an instructor take his time, teach me, yell at me and make sure I'm good enough to meet his standards than to happily get a OWSI cert card from some IE who gives the card with his right hand while taking my money with his left.

To zendiver : I apologise for getting hotheaded and chucking rocks at you. You have your way of doing things and its probably safer than many others. Using your judgement AND following the standards makes the situation as safe as a person can make it. My bone to pick was with following standards for the sake of following standards, not with you. I'm the sort of person to lean towards Thalassomethingsomethingnia's way of doing things and since I have hardly 1/100 of his experience, I shall stick to following most of the standards unless I feel I can do more by exceeding the standards than just following the minimum. The way I am now, I dont think I would leave a kid diver whos my responsibility in someone elses care, but I dont disagree with the practice, provided certain conditions are satisfied (someone experienced is supervising etc etc)

Besides I'm on this forum to learn and improve, not impose my thoughts on others. I certainly feel strongly about what I've said but making you nod your head in agreement only serves to prove that I am a good debater and not necessarily a good diver, which was supposed to be the original goal anyway.

Will you still dive with me? *puppy dog eyes*

 

[DCBC]

Seems to me that by getting in the water with his own kid, this father was not putting his trust in the scuba instructor, but rather taking the responsibility for the safety of his child on himself.

That may be the perspective of the father, but it is not reality. The Instructor is the one responsible. He is required by law to act in a responsible manner (standard-of-care). In the case of an accident, the father could have sued the instructor, the dive shop and perhaps the pool. Expert witnesses from the diving agency would crucify the Instructor in court. That is the reality.

From a liability perspective, I can see your point ... but is liability really the issue being discussed here?

Yes, I certainly think it's one of them.

 

[waynne fowler]

The problem I see with the majority of scuba instructors today is that they have a tremendous capacity for underestimating the ability ... and potential ... of their students.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Probably one of the biggest problems diving instruction has today. Instructors with a few hundred 30 min dives to 30' thinking they have some secret knowledge that their students just can't fathom. I can't even count the number of OW instructors I know who hold NO certification (and worse yet, no knowledge) beyond what they teach. The blindfolded leading the blind.

 

[Web Monkey]

Imagine what she'd be today if she'd been denied the opportunity to dive until she was 16.

The problem I see with the majority of scuba instructors today is that they have a tremendous capacity for underestimating the ability ... and potential ... of their students.

I don't underestimate kid's abilities at all. I know a 14 year old violin player that belongs in Carnegie Hall.

However I also knew a 14 year old that walked off into a lake and committed suicide and 16 year old that went joy-riding around a quarry and drove his jeep over a cliff, killing himself and his friend.

What I don't have confidence in is my ability to determine which kid is the violin player and which kid doesn't believe the "Danger! Cliff!" signs are real. Maybe that will change as I teach longer. Maybe not. Time will tell.

Terry

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't underestimate kid's abilities at all. I know a 14 year old violin player that belongs in Carnegie Hall.

However I also knew a 14 year old that walked off into a lake and committed suicide and 16 year old that went joy-riding around a quarry and drove his jeep over a cliff, killing himself and his friend.

What I don't have confidence in is my ability to determine which kid is the violin player and which kid doesn't believe the "Danger! Cliff!" signs are real. Maybe that will change as I teach longer. Maybe not. Time will tell.

Terry

But Terry ... that's not necessarily a function of age. I've known adults who did similar things than to two examples you just gave. And where scuba is concerned, I've known adults who've done incredibly stupid ... sometimes fatal ... things. I'm fairly sure you have too. When adults sign up for your classes, do you have confidence that you know which ones won't?

Age isn't necessarily the determining factor.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)