40m without deep specialty?

[MauiScubaSteve]

Interesting that no one seems to know the definitive answer to this.

I had never given it much thought before as I don't that often dive deeper than 30m but nevertheless how many DMs/Instructors have actually even ever taken the Deep Speciality?

Most of those instructors and divemasters who have taken a Deep Specialty are likely recent instructors who have taught way less divers and done way less deep dives than many experienced instructors and divemasters who have not taken a Deep Specialty.

What I find interesting is how many SB'ers seem to think no one seems to know the definitive answer. I just yahoo'd "dan dive insurance", then clicked on the first "hit" (DAN Insurance : Dive Accident, Trip, Dive Equipment, Camera, Group Term Life), then clicked on "Compare DAN's Dive Accident Insurance Plans" to get to this page;

http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/insurance/compare.asp

Now look near the middle of the page for "Planned Maximum Depth Covered";

Standard Plan - 130'/40m
Master Plan - No Limit
Prefered Plan - No Limit

 

[Splash-X]

The DAN policy is for insurance to cover you, the diver. That is not your professional liability insurance or blanket policy that you as a PADI DM/Instructor carry or through a shop.

So I guess the real question is, which insurance is everyone talking about because your personal insurance that will cover YOU in the event of an accident is different than that which will cover you when something happens to the divers under your care while leading a trip.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Splash-x, why do you think there is only one real question here; it is SB after all???

If we were to assume the USA is one of the most sue happy nations on the planet and instructor/guide insurance is only good to the recommendations of 60', 100' and 130' then why would so many charter operations in the USA send their instructor/guides below those recommended depths for the divers in the group they are leading?

Isn't it more logical to infer from all the guided deeper than recommended for training level diving going on in the USA that in fact the insurance does cover those activities. Perhaps dive boat operators who refuse to pay decent money end up with inexperienced boobs for employees and then "claim" their insurance mandates not diving below the recommended depths of certification level to cover their a$$.

Another perhaps is perhaps V&B has broken up insurance the same way PADI broke up dive training and the cheaper level of insurance (which is still more expensive than any other insurance in the industry AFAIK) has those restrictions. I personally have never worked for any dive business insured by V&B so I don't know about that. I have worked under pretty much every other recreational dive insurance available in the USA and my employers have never batted an eye with regards to guiding fresh OW divers to depths below 60'.

 

[Splash-X]

You may disagree with my view point but no one has come up with a real answer to the question. Basing the depth on what other operators are doing is almost the same as blindly following someone else off a cliff. Just because someone else does it doesn't mean you have to or should.

I'm not trained by PADI so I can only contribute the facts that i do know. My input on this subject has been to clealry point out the the policy in question states that you must dive within the depths you were trained for.

I can't speak for your training nor the training of any other operator or professional. Your training is your training, not mine.


This topic is in the basic scuba discussion and perhaps it should be moved to a more related section such as the Dive Professional section.

 

[JonBath]

Having read this thread doesn't seem like there's any clear answers. As a DM my personal understanding would be that I would be extremely uncomfortable to lead a dive beyond 30m without having done the Deep Diver speciality myself, purely just avoid any potential liablity issues.

Though I do have another question at a slight tangent, considering since gaining my DM I've now crossed over to BSAC as a Dive Leader and thus now have a theoretical depth limit of 50m, Assuming I'd had experience at these depths would this qualify me to lead deep dives as a DM for PADI or would have should I have gained Deep experience in-house at it were through the Deep speciality. Thoughts anyone.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

For you to accept the certification you are saying that you are trained to the level expected of a BSAC Dive Leader. If you knowingly allowed it to happen without having the required training I would find you guilty of fraud as well as your instructor.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

You may disagree with my view point but no one has come up with a real answer to the question. Basing the depth on what other operators are doing is almost the same as blindly following someone else off a cliff. Just because someone else does it doesn't mean you have to or should.

I'm not trained by PADI so I can only contribute the facts that i do know. My input on this subject has been to clealry point out the the policy in question states that you must dive within the depths you were trained for.

I can't speak for your training nor the training of any other operator or professional. Your training is your training, not mine.


This topic is in the basic scuba discussion and perhaps it should be moved to a more related section such as the Dive Professional section.

Maybe it's been left in Basic Scuba because the subject is guiding basic scuba divers, no?

Since you are not trained by PADI, what fact was it again that you contribute?

So, you don't feel a real answer could come from a PADI Instructor/Guide who has guided divers beyond their recommended training depth for 8 years and 7 out of 7 employers, at my employers and customers mutual request. I only knows of a few operators in Hawaii who have AOL required trips in print anymore and most will overlook it with a little negotiation (not all).

 

[JonBath]

For you to accept the certification you are saying that you are trained to the level expected of a BSAC Dive Leader. If you knowingly allowed it to happen without having the required training I would find you guilty of fraud as well as your instructor.

It was a theoretical excercise, I'd never do without training first (for my own sake never mind anyone elses!) Christ, I don't like leading beginner or new divers to 30m, never mind deeper, after watching an AOW student bend a DM friend when she decided to go full buoyant ascent from 27m. It's just I've just recently crossed over to BSAC in the last few months. My DM cert crosses over at Dive leader level in the BSAC system. Dive Leaders are certified to 50m, although I haven't got round to doing a dive that deep yet to completely finish my crossover requirements. What I was asking was assuming I had indeed done that dive and thus would be officially a Dive leader all stamped and sealed off, would that provide appropriate 'training' in PADI's eyes or would they require you to jump through the hoops of their own speciality despite that fact I would potentially have qualifications more advanced than their's. Or would training under another agency be enough therefore to assuage any liability issues.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Did you or did you not knowingly accept certification to a level that you have not yet received the training required?

 

[drydiver]

Forget about specialty or cert level for one minute. Are you and your buddy comfortable at whatever depth you are at? Can you perform in an emergency, equip failure, etc at that depth? Can you anticipate your buddies reaction at the current depth? If no, than no cert or specialty will help you. Experience counts, specifically with your buddy. Insta-buddy? No cert level counts, only underwater visual cues, communication and experience counts.

Personally, I do not have a Deep specialty but have never exceeded 130'. I am only AOW with about 300 dives in cold, low viz environments. There are people I would dive deep with and those I would not. I know my personal dive comfort zones and won't exceed those. With a regular dive buddy and in comfortable conditions, I would exceed my paper limitations, especially in the case of a wreck

But then again, I am not married, I have no dependents. It is all individual opinions and lifestyles here.

Donna