1962 Voit ad - but that positioning...

[Rose Robinson]

VDH is a small, one man operation... He makes the Kraken in small batches, and they are currently sold out. More will get made in the future, I'm sure. In the meantime, they do pop up used occasionally, and part of the design philosophy that went in to them is to use sustainable parts (all the service parts and most other parts are available through 3rd party sources, common to other designs). So even if VDH did go out of business, they would be maintainable... not that I think he will.
Like Mark pointed out, the Phoenix first stage will upgrade a DA Aqua Master to nearly the same point as the Kraken (giving you HP and LP ports, and better max flow than stock). On the lower end, I use a DA Aqua Master that I put a Cyclone first (from VDH) into, basically making it an improved Royal Aqua Master. I added a splitter to the Hookah port, and run an octo and BC hose off that. And my 10 y.o. has a DAAM that I refurbished bone stock that he likes quite a bit.
So there are quite a few options!
Respectfully,
James

Thank you James79,

Yesterday the Scuba Lawyer (Mark) gave me a resource, thescubamuseum.com

There is a regulator in their online store that caught my eye, all black, with the body of the regulator finished with a ceramic coating.

I thought the ceramic coating would be good for my north Pacific salt water environment.

But, and it seems to be a large but, although this regulator has been fully rebuilt, from what I've just been told here, it would have to be modernized with other parts, in order to make it fully useful.

I know what the business end of a screw-driver, wrench looks like, but it doesn't go much further than that.

It appears that modernized yokes, Phoenix first stages?? and other parts that I'm totally unfamiliar with would need to be added/replaced with, in order to make the regulator useful and safe.

If Brigadoon is hidden in the woods, I think I'm getting further away, not closer.

Thank you again for your help, and knowledge.

LOL,

Rose.

 

[James79]

Thank you James79,

Yesterday the Scuba Lawyer (Mark) gave me a resource, thescubamuseum.com

There is a regulator in their online store that caught my eye, all black, with the body of the regulator finished with a ceramic coating.

I thought the ceramic coating would be good for my north Pacific salt water environment.

But, and it seems to be a large but, although this regulator has been fully rebuilt, from what I've just been told here, it would have to be modernized with other parts, in order to make it fully useful.

I know what the business end of a screw-driver, wrench looks like, but it doesn't go much further than that.

It appears that modernized yokes, Phoenix first stages?? and other parts that I'm totally unfamiliar with would need to be added/replaced with, in order to make the regulator useful and safe.

If Brigadoon is hidden in the woods, I think I'm getting further away, not closer.

Thank you again for your help, and knowledge.

LOL,

Rose.

Rose,

I think I see the one at TheScubaMuseum that you are looking at (the Faux Non-Mag). It does look nice, and the only thing that I would consider a must for it is either a tank valve with an HP port for a pressure gauge (3 of my tanks have them... old valves, but freshly rebuilt), or a long yoke and a banjo fitting (goes between the reg and the valve) to ro run a pressure gauge. The Hookah port you could throw an adapter on for an octo and inflator hose. I would look into a thicker yoke for tank pressures over 3000 psi, but as others have said, the U.S. Navy used the stock yokes on 3000 psi tanks for years.

Regarding the Pacific salt water environment, good rinsing is all you really need, the Ceracoat is just a nicety.

Regarding which end of the screwdriver is pointy... we all start somewhere! And a wiser man than me once said Regulator repair/maintenance isn't difficult... it's just precise. It blows my mind how few moving parts are in most of these regs!

Respectfully,

James

 

[Rose Robinson]

Rose,

I think I see the one at TheScubaMuseum that you are looking at (the Faux Non-Mag). It does look nice, and the only thing that I would consider a must for it is either a tank valve with an HP port for a pressure gauge (3 of my tanks have them... old valves, but freshly rebuilt), or a long yoke and a banjo fitting (goes between the reg and the valve) to ro run a pressure gauge. The Hookah port you could throw an adapter on for an octo and inflator hose. I would look into a thicker yoke for tank pressures over 3000 psi, but as others have said, the U.S. Navy used the stock yokes on 3000 psi tanks for years.

Regarding the Pacific salt water environment, good rinsing is all you really need, the Ceracoat is just a nicety.

Regarding which end of the screwdriver is pointy... we all start somewhere! And a wiser man than me once said Regulator repair/maintenance isn't difficult... it's just precise. It blows my mind how few moving parts are in most of these regs!

Respectfully,

James

Hello again James,

Yes that's the one, there is also a Voit. It has a two piece, bolt together black plastic body, with choice of decals.

In the photos, it is fitted with light grey hoses, which can be exchanged for black.

At the base of the yoke fitting, it has three port nuts. One 3/8'' LP, one 3/8'' HP and a larger HP nut on the other side that would need an adapter fitting.

I think I could manage this.

Also, I sent an e-mail to the proprietor, and asked if the ceramic coated regulator could be fitted with a Phoenix valve, which is fitted with HP and LP ports, and a modern tank fitting, either DIN, or yoke.

I'm awaiting a reply.

If the ceramic coated reg can't be refitted, I think I will buy the Voit, fitted with black hoses.

Two days ago I knew absolutely nothing about these vintage regulators, and now I can say, Phoenix Valve.

Any opinions regarding a refit of the ceramic coated regulator versus the Voit?

LOL,

Rose.

 

[James79]

Hello again James,

Yes that's the one, there is also a Voit. It has a two piece, bolt together black plastic body, with choice of decals.

In the photos, it is fitted with light grey hoses, which can be exchanged for black.

At the base of the yoke fitting, it has three port nuts. One 3/8'' LP, one 3/8'' HP and a larger HP nut on the other side that would need an adapter fitting.

I think I could manage this.

Also, I sent an e-mail to the proprietor, and asked if the ceramic coated regulator could be fitted with a Phoenix valve, which is fitted with HP and LP ports, and a modern tank fitting, either DIN, or yoke.

I'm awaiting a reply.

If the ceramic coated reg can't be refitted, I think I will buy the Voit, fitted with black hoses.

Two days ago I knew absolutely nothing about these vintage regulators, and now I can say, Phoenix Valve.

Any opinions regarding a refit of the ceramic coated regulator versus the Voit?

LOL,

Rose.

Rose,
I'm not smart on the Trieste (the Voit that you are looking at), so I can't speak to it other than that it does have the inbuilt capacity for an SPG hose and an LP hose. I do know that the Phoenix first stage uses a modern yoke (good for HP tanks right out the gate). The same individual who designed the Kraken, also did the Cyclone and Phoenix first stages... so they also have the sustainability of parts inbuilt to the design. I'm a fan of the Aqualung DAAM/RAM/Conshelf series of regs, myself... so that is what I would default to. The Trieste would probably be cheaper than the Cera-coted DAAM plus Phoenix. One other factor to look at is hose routing/placement. Phoenix gives 3 each HP and LP ports, alternating all the way around... the Triest ports are on the same side, next to each other. Not insurmountable... just food for thought.
The other recommendation I would make, is look at servicing it yourself... most dive shops won't work on DH regs, but they truly aren't hard. It also gives a great warm and fuzzy when you KNOW what is happening inside your reg.
So... a lot of words to end up with...... It depends? lol
Respectfully,
James

 

[Rose Robinson]

Rose,
I'm not smart on the Trieste (the Voit that you are looking at), so I can't speak to it other than that it does have the inbuilt capacity for an SPG hose and an LP hose. I do know that the Phoenix first stage uses a modern yoke (good for HP tanks right out the gate). The same individual who designed the Kraken, also did the Cyclone and Phoenix first stages... so they also have the sustainability of parts inbuilt to the design. I'm a fan of the Aqualung DAAM/RAM/Conshelf series of regs, myself... so that is what I would default to. The Trieste would probably be cheaper than the Cera-coted DAAM plus Phoenix. One other factor to look at is hose routing/placement. Phoenix gives 3 each HP and LP ports, alternating all the way around... the Triest ports are on the same side, next to each other. Not insurmountable... just food for thought.
The other recommendation I would make, is look at servicing it yourself... most dive shops won't work on DH regs, but they truly aren't hard. It also gives a great warm and fuzzy when you KNOW what is happening inside your reg.
So... a lot of words to end up with...... It depends? lol
Respectfully,
James

Thank you James,

I received an e-mail from thescubamuseum.com, and I'm working through this with the proprietor.

I think the Phoenix 1st stage is not an option. there are none to be had.

The Trieste/Voit looks viable, and I will likely buy it, pending a little further discussion with Scuba Museum.

LOL,

Rose.

 

[Luis H]

The modified Trieste is not a bad option as a starter DH regulator, but it does have some trade-off.

Here is a link to the can conversion.
http://www.thescubamuseum.com/products/FX trieste titan precut cans.htm

If you do a search for the Pegasus project in VintageDoubleHose, you will see some write ups I did when I was developing the conversion of the Voit Titan single hose into a double hose regulator (the Titan has the same body as the Trieste). The Trieste was already a double hose regulator, so the only conversion was changing the can to get the mechanical advantage of the large diaphragm.

The final regulator ends up as a reasonable good performing regulator. No real compromise when it comes to performance.

The two compromises are the LP (and a bit of interference with the HP port) and at the time for service the first stage balancing chamber is a bit of an issue. Both of these issues have solutions. Some of the solutions are more elegant than others.

Both the LP and HP ports are on the right side and are fairly close to each other. Having the SPG on the right side is not the modern standard, but getting used to it is not a big deal. A bigger issue is that you only have one standard LP port and there is not enough space for most multi-port adapters.

There is a large LP port on the left side that could be used for an LP inflator, but it would require an adapter that is almost impossible to find or have one machined. I have a friend that has made a few of them.

I can send you some pictures of some of the LP port solutions from some of my Pegasus prototypes.

The solutions for the first stage service parts are probably not a concern for a few years. We can come back to that later.



I like the enthusiasm that you have for DH. But be aware that DH are a bit different.

Ideally to get started with a DH is to try it with someone that can show you how to use it. It is not hard, but some new divers may get frustrated early due to the differences. If you are near Vancouver, we have a good friend who is a very good DH diver and vintage scuba collector that maybe could help you, but I guess traveling is not an option at this moment.

If you are going to try it on your own, you want to read a lot and spend some time in a pool getting used to it and playing with it.

 

[scrane]

My recommendation is to go with the Aqua-Master. They were the industry standard and modern parts and support are plentiful. I have had the Kraken and the Phoenix modified A-M. I have sold the Kraken and retained the A-M because in my case the A-M gave me better performance. I have noticed that recently availability is better on the Phoenix than the Kraken. The Cyclone first stage module for the A-M is a lot cheaper than the Phoenix and currently available but lacks the ports of the Phoenix. Basic Aqua-Masters for rebuild are typically available on ebay in the $150 - $200 range. My fully upgraded Phoenix/ HPR/ DSV Aqua-Master ended up costing me about $600.
As Luis mentioned, double hose regulators are an entirely different animal than the single hose reg. IMO they are a lot more finicky in their overall breathing characteristics.

 

[Luis H]

My recommendation is to go with the Aqua-Master. They were the industry standard and modern parts and support are plentiful. I have had the Kraken and the Phoenix modified A-M. I have sold the Kraken and retained the A-M because in my case the A-M gave me better performance. I have noticed that recently availability is better on the Phoenix than the Kraken. The Cyclone first stage module for the A-M is a lot cheaper than the Phoenix and currently available but lacks the ports of the Phoenix. Basic Aqua-Masters for rebuild are typically available on ebay in the $150 - $200 range. My fully upgraded Phoenix/ HPR/ DSV Aqua-Master ended up costing me about $600.
As Luis mentioned, double hose regulators are an entirely different animal than the single hose reg. IMO they are a lot more finicky in their overall breathing characteristics.

Obviously, your Kraken was poorly adjusted. Mechanically the a Phoenix-HPR converted Aqua Master is very close to an Argonaut Kraken, but the flow resistance is lower in the Kraken IP path and the venturi in a Kraken will always be a bit better than with the metal cans. Again the individual discrepancy of your unit can easily be traced to tuning. Poor tuning can ruin any regulator.


I didn't mention that they are finicky, I mention they are different, but I can easily understand how some may consider them finicky. Human perception plays a huge part in what we try to call "regulator performance". What we can physically measure and what humans perceive are often not the same. And human perception is just as important or more than what we can physically measure.


Added: I have had friends tell me that they like the performance of their converted (Phoenix-HPR) cans. But it always turns out that what they like is the shiny looks of the vintage cans. And I don't disagree: looks is important, (to some people more than others).

 

[scrane]

Sorry, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth.
Due to the laws of physics, the breathing from a DH is extremely dependent on the diver's attitude in the water. A DH that breathes like a dream on dry land will have a remarkable variation in cracking pressure as the diver changes his position in the water.
There are certain reasons why these characteristics are not that important to DH divers. For me, it is the advantage of remote exhaust. Others may not be a squirrely as me in the water. The vintage factor can be important, DH regs always attract a lot of attention. And some people just like them.

 

[Luis H]

Yes I agree about the water column and about human perception. I like the way you expressed it, but I am going to expand a bit.


The physics of the water column are constant and it affects everyone the same, but we don’t all perceive it the same and some regulators can deal with the effects better than others.

The actual cracking effort in all regulators is going to be affected by the water column. Obviously how it is affected is directly related to the physical location of the demand valve sensor (the diaphragm) relative to the vertical position of the human sensation.

It used to be believed that the center of the lungs was what affected human sensation, that has been proven not to be the case. We do the work of breathing with our lungs, but we have no pressure sensation in our lungs. The Navy (and all the labs) locate the pressure sensor on the breathing test dummies on the back of the throat. See note below.

But then immediately after the cracking effort (at the initial zero flow) we have the possible aerodynamic effect of an induced venturi flow. A well designed and tuned regulator can have enough venturi flow to mitigate the pressure differential due to the water column.

The performance enhancement of the venturi is a function of two factors. Obviously first the regulator design, but second and just as important is how we breath. If you were trained to take little very short breaths, then we barely actuate the venturi effect. Taking deep, lung flushing breaths, not only ventilate your lungs better, but it takes full advantage of the venturi effect. Slow long breaths seem to work the best.

Some instructors have been teaching short little breaths to reduce buoyancy change. I personally think it is a very bad idea not to fully ventilate the diver’s lungs. Little short breaths will not effectively flush CO2 as well as longer slow breaths.


Note: There has been a lot of studies on the best placement of rebreather counter-lungs. The physics of the water column also directly affect the rebreather diver with the effects on the placement of their counter-lungs, and they don't have any potential for pneumatic assistance with a venturi (or stored compressed gas).