13 year old diver dies - Oahu, Hawaii

[KevinNM]

As for inaccessibility, it sounds like a customer can choose between a full day, where skills are in a pool first, or go directly to the open water portion. If the customer is short on time, s/he may choose the direct to open water. Or the timing is such that s/he arrived after the pool skills have already been taught yet wants to go anyway, to be with relatives/friends at the same time on the boat. S/he can pick up the skills on the first dive.

You could cut out all the boring OW instruction and just cut right to the OW dives if you are short of time and want to be a certified diver, right?

 

[MichaelMc]

For the OW course, there was another thread that said that for the skills portion for OW, they could be done in a pool or shallow, calm open water. Perhaps DSD's allow similar situations for the skills portion?

Yes, confined includes more than just pool, but it does need to be shallow, calm, possibly roped off, etc.

As for inaccessibility, it sounds like a customer can choose between a full day, where skills are in a pool first, or go directly to the open water portion. If the customer is short on time, s/he may choose the direct to open water. Or the timing is such that s/he arrived after the pool skills have already been taught yet wants to go anyway, to be with relatives/friends at the same time on the boat. S/he can pick up the skills on the first dive.

Yes, that shop's web site offers the customer two discover versions, described as a choice for the customer.

From that, I would use the word 'optional' for the shallow first version. Not of using the skills-on-a-line version because shallow water was 'inaccessible', which is the word the standard uses in that phrase.

 

[divinh]

You could cut out all the boring OW instruction and just cut right to the OW dives if you are short of time and want to be a certified diver, right?

What I was trying to point out is that the rules for OW seem to allow for shallow, calm open water to be treated similarly to a pool for teaching skills. Perhaps DSD is similar, thus the shop allows either a full day with pool or shortened day only in open water if the person is comfortable in water.

 

[divinh]

Yes, that shop's web site offers the customer two discover versions, described as a choice for the customer.

From that, I would use the word 'optional' for the shallow first version. Not of using the skills-on-a-line version because shallow water was 'inaccessible', which is the word the standard uses in that phrase.

Understood. Further along, the quoted PADI IM says that the on-the-line instruction is one-on-one with an instructor. Since it was four divers and an instructor, were they all DSD's? And if so, did they all seem somewhat proficient that the instructor felt comfortable enough to have four of them?

 

[Gunrock]

I'm quite late to this thread but I'll chime in because I live in HI. I've been diving with ID and I even went with a group that included a friend doing a DSD with them in 2013. Everything went smoothly and my friend had 1-on-1, hands-on supervision. But a shop is only as good as its staff so I can't say what if anything is different in 2019.

I will say that I personally was naive about diving here when I moved from CA. I dove here for several years (mostly from shore) before I encountered the first current that was too strong to swim against. Turns out that when you're boat diving, strong currents aren't all that uncommon. It's really hit or miss here and I think a lot of visitors don't understand that, just like I didn't. On a calm day it can be like diving in a bathtub and that's great, but the next day there might be a current so strong that if you let go of the tag line at the surface you're not swimming back to the boat unless you ditch your rig, and even then you'd better be a good swimmer. Just a few months ago I called a dive in the area of this incident at the surface, because of the current. Despite my years of experience and the fact that I'm pretty fit, as I was huffing and puffing at the surface I realized that aside from the safety aspect, it just wasn't going to be any fun. We moved the boat and dove another nearby spot without incident.

I mention all of that because on a local Facebook thread someone who claimed to be on the boat during the incident described the viz as the worst they'd ever seen in HI, at around 5 ft, with a strong current. I can't confirm that to be true but if that was really the case then I'm sure anyone still reading this would agree that those aren't suitable conditions for a DSD, regardless of ratios or anything else.

 

[yle]

It seems more than a bit crazy to be doing 4:1 in the ocean in bad visibility without any pool work first.

Definitely... MORE than a bit crazy. Potentially fatal.

 

[yle]

Understood. Further along, the quoted PADI IM says that the on-the-line instruction is one-on-one with an instructor. Since it was four divers and an instructor, were they all DSD's? And if so, did they all seem somewhat proficient that the instructor felt comfortable enough to have four of them?

The 1-on-1 requirement refers to the "skills on the line" portion only, while the actual dive can be 4:1 after the skills are completed. It is possible that an instructor could take 4 DSD participants, one at at time (while the others wait either in the boat or supervised at the surface, by another instructor) to do skills on the line. After each has completed their skills 1-to-1, all four can go with the instructor on the dive.

That would be how to do it while maintaining standards. I'm sure the story of what actually happened in this situation will be revealed in the court proceedings.

 

[yle]

What I was trying to point out is that the rules for OW seem to allow for shallow, calm open water to be treated similarly to a pool for teaching skills.

PADI requires certain portions of courses to be conducted in "confined water"... which is usually a swimming pool, but doesn't have to be. The IM specifies that "confined water" must have "pool-like conditions": still, clear and relatively shallow water, with no boat traffic. And easy access to an exit. A lagoon of clear water might qualify, but most beaches (which are subject to wave action) won't.

However, this is a different issue from the "skills on the line" option with the DSD standards.

 

[Colliam7]

Colliam7, . . .do you think a set of conditions exists under which a person exercising good judgment would take four non-divers on a DSD in open water? If so, what would those conditions be?

An excellent question. My answer is 'Yes', although keep in mind that I have already stated that I do not personally conduct OW DSD dives, because - for me - the risk is not acceptable. Therefore, consider my answer in the context of what I actually do and don't do.

The conditions (this is a real example - without naming resorts or even specific locations - where I have seen a substantial number of DSD OW dives safely and enjoyably conducted with a 4:1 ratio): a shallow 'shelf' along the shore of a Caribbean island, next to a dive resort. It is open water, it is ocean water, there are lots of critters swimming around, although the bottom is basically sand and dead, white coral. The shelf is reasonably flat, virtually no slope, over 100 feet wide before it starts to drop off, and extends hundreds of feet along the shoreline. The maximum depth is ~20 feet, the minimum depth is ~12 feet. Water temperatures are 82 degrees, visibility is 80+ feet. There is usually little to no current, although there may be a 1/4 knot current at time, and the location has virtually no swells. It is quite close to pool-like conditions, although boats are docked on the surface in parts of the area, there is no 'shallow end' in which to stand, etc. I have personally spent hours diving in this area, and I have logged dives done in this area.

until we acknowledge that scuba diving is a dangerous sport that can be done in a safe manner instead of making up arbitrary rules, folks will die.

It’s about the attitude with which it approached, not the rules governing it. Rules just keep the folks who dive safe anyways safe. For the unsafe, no amount of rules or ratios will help.

Exceptionally well-stated.

Essential issue with DSDs: they always go just fine, very smooth, under control... until they don't.

Very true. Of course, this is also the case with virtually everything that we do that involves risk. It is true every time I fly an airplane, for instance. My flights 'always go just fine, very smooth, under control . . . until they don't'. The 'until they don't' has not happened, yet. I will probably die of old age having never experienced an 'until they don't' in an airplane. Or, it could happen the next time I take off. I actively work to reduce the likelihood of an 'until they don't event', though currency flying, recurrent training, periodic flight reviews, etc. None of that is a guarantee, nor will it save me if I use bad judgment (and decide to fly into icing conditions, whatever). The same is true as a scuba instructor. I work to mitigate the possibility of a bad outcome by using good judgement to the best of my ability. And, good judgement does not include doing something that is unwise just because the applicable standards don't explicitly prohibit it.

In reality, the safety record of DSD experiences is actually quite good. From time to time, we read of an isolated horrific outcome - a tragic death such as the one we are discussing here - and it is tempting to conclude that DSD Open Water dives are an accident waiting to happen. That is simply not the case. Thousands are safely conducted, around the globe, every year.

In 2012, 32 people died aboard the cruise ship Costa Concordia. Hundreds of thousands of people take cruises every year without incident. The Costa Concordia had an excellent safety record, right up until the point that it didn't. But, 32 people died on that ship because the captain failed to use good judgement - he apparently decided to show off for his Moldavian dancer girlfriend. I do not know, - as a matter of fact - what happened on Oahu. I suspect, based on the very limited information available, that the most likely explanation is that the dive professional leading the DSD OW dive used poor judgement - he failed to properly evaluate the conditions, and/or failed to properly prepare the DSD participants, and/or failed to properly supervise the divers in the water. Maybe, he had used bad judgement before, and gotten away with it. Who knows? But, I have no reason to believe that the presence of different, more conservative, ratios would have prevented the tragedy, as appealing a solution as that might appear to be.

 

[Bob DBF]

...it is tempting to conclude that DSD Open Water dives are an accident waiting to happen. That is simply not the case. Thousands are safely conducted, around the globe, every year.

If it is not the case why are we having this discussion? Because thousands are safely conducted give the tourist a false sense of security, and the instructor the idea that it's safe. Sooner or later someone pays with their life, but the death toll not big enough consider any change.

You not doing DSDs because the risk is not acceptable indicates to me that you believe that it is an accident waiting to happen.


Bob