13 year old diver dies - Oahu, Hawaii

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We need a similar law, since the dive agencies have failed to self-regulate this issue properly in the US.
Not sure about that. Maybe some agencies ignore it, but SDI reduced their ratios (for open water) from 4 to 2, with the additional caveat: A maximum of 2 students per instructor; or 4 with an active assistant; it is the instructor’s discretion to reduce this number as conditions dictate.
And PADI, although keeping the ratio at 4, had added some severe language that pretty much means less than 4 is what you ought to do...dependent on conditions, even if they change during the dive. Which was apparently ignored in this case.
Ratios
You must apply continuous and sound judgment before, during and after the dive. It’s your professional responsibility to conduct a risk assessment by evaluating variables such as water conditions, temperature, visibility, water movement, entries and exits, ability of participants, certified assistants available, your and your assistant’s personal limitations, etc., to determine what ratio will fit the situation — reducing the ratio from the maximum if needed. Take into account changing variables and your ability to directly supervise and observe participants. Reassess during the dive.
 
I just checked the SDI standards. This is for open water: If the student is 14 or younger, 1 student per instructor, max 2 with an active assistant.

Doesn’t say anything about ratios for pool DSD when the students are 14 or younger.

Two years ago my goddaughter - 12 at the time - did a pool DSD (the only way they’re done in the Midwest). It was her and another kid about the same age. There was 1 instructor and 1 DM assisting for the 2 kids.
 
I just checked the SDI standards. This is for open water: If the student is 14 or younger, 1 student per instructor, max 2 with an active assistant.

Doesn’t say anything about ratios for pool DSD when the students are 14 or younger.

Ratios for pool DSDs tend to be pretty generous, for obvious reasons: usually no current (unless your filter is running and someone swims too close to a return jet), visibility is usually excellent, and it's nearly impossible to lose sight of a participant. Not to say that pool accidents don't happen... but the environment isn't actively working against you in a pool.
 
Not sure about that. Maybe some agencies ignore it, but SDI reduced their ratios (for open water) from 4 to 2, with the additional caveat: A maximum of 2 students per instructor; or 4 with an active assistant; it is the instructor’s discretion to reduce this number as conditions dictate.
And PADI, although keeping the ratio at 4, had added some severe language that pretty much means less than 4 is what you ought to do...dependent on conditions, even if they change during the dive. Which was apparently ignored in this case.
Ratios
You must apply continuous and sound judgment before, during and after the dive. It’s your professional responsibility to conduct a risk assessment by evaluating variables such as water conditions, temperature, visibility, water movement, entries and exits, ability of participants, certified assistants available, your and your assistant’s personal limitations, etc., to determine what ratio will fit the situation — reducing the ratio from the maximum if needed. Take into account changing variables and your ability to directly supervise and observe participants. Reassess during the dive.
Leaving that to the discretion of the instructor is a problem in my opinion. If the rule were a firm 1 or 2, that kid might be alive today. I think the SDI standard that @Marie13 posted sounds perfect.
 
Leaving that to the discretion of the instructor is a problem in my opinion. If the rule were a firm 1 or 2, that kid might be alive today. I think the SDI standard that @Marie13 posted sounds perfect.
I agree.
 
I have a coworker who is going to HI for vacation later this year. They were asking me about try dives. I said absolutely not and showed him this thread. Told him only try dives in a pool, especially since he’s got kids 12-15 years old. They already snorkel. Hopefully he’ll listen.
 
The easy, armchair solution to the problem is regulatory restriction. And, in contemporary society, when something like this happens - something tragic which simply SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED (as far as we can tell from the very limited information that is available) - it is usual and customary (and unfortunate) to prescribe as a solution, 'There ought to be a law . . . !' And, we end up with legislation and regulation constructed most often by people who really don't know the 'subject area', who often rely on SMEs who push themselves to the front of the advisor line because they have some particular personal agenda to pursue. This approach - enact a law - is the contemporary equivalent of the Queen of Hearts oft repeated solution to anything that annoyed her, 'Off with their heads!!!' The problem is, you can't really legislate good judgement, any more than you can legislate morality. Yes, you can significantly restrict what everybody does, but it still won't eliminate, or necessarily even address, the actual problem.

Now, it is safe to say that those of us in this thread commenting so comfortably from in front of our computer screens were probably not present at the time of the event. So, there has been a lot of speculation, much of it informed and thoughtful, some of it ignorant and borderline ridiculous. I know that I was not there. So, I do not know - for certain - what the conditions were at the time of the dive (on the surface, or underwater), what actually happened underwater, what the true level of physical skill and experience the DSD diver possessed, how many divers were in the DSD group, how many dive professionals (and what level of professionals) were involved, etc., etc. etc. All I know is what I have read in media accounts, and I also know that I cannot trust the accuracy of those accounts any more than I can trust a what a politician promises, or a loan shark agrees to. :)

As I said in post #48, and as tursiops quoted in post 101, PADI (and Island Divers is a PADI shop) makes it crystal clear that the dive professionals involved with DSDs must exercise good professional judgement. The ratios are actually meaningless . They are at most upper limits, irrespective of the conditions. Dive professionals are expected to use good judgement to determine what is best, given the environment, the diver, etc. And, what we MOST PROBABLY have in this case is a failure of judgement. Depending on what the facts turn out to be, there may have been other, additional violations of standards (depth, preliminary skill instruction, etc.) I don't know that for a fact. But, as I also mentioned previously, that has been the legal outcome in the majority of previous cases like this. If a dive professional uses good judgement, this (most probably) shouldn't happen. If this happens, the dive professional (most probably) didn't use good judgement

So, set the DSD Open Water Dive ratios to 1:1. Fine. I have no problem with that myself, because I don't do DSD OW dives, because of the risk - to me primarily, as well as the diver. For that matter, do away with DSDs altogether. Works for me. Unfortunately, neither action will address a real problem, documented in the majority of previous cases like this - poor dive professional judgement. A reasonably prudent person, one who exercises good judgement, will not take responsibility for the welfare of others, unless s/he is confident that they can address situations that are likely to develop which may cause harm to others or themselves. That is their duty of care as a 'professional'. If the facts as they have been presented thus far turn out to be accurate, then we are once again reminded - unfortunately for this young man, even moreso for his family left to mourn his death - that not every dive professional necessarily sees their responsibility in that light. Sad, but true.
 
I agree that good judgment is more useful than the blunt instrument of broad standards in pretty much every aspect of life. But of course, if good judgment could be counted on to govern decisionmaking, we wouldn't need standards at all. I think having standards that are too lax in all but the most benign conditions can create a false sense of security and may be worse than no standard at all. Perhaps the 4:1 ratio is an example of this. Perhaps not. I lack sufficient expertise to tell PADI what to do. But based on what little I do know, and what I've learned here, I think I would discourage my loved ones from going on a DSD in open water unless the dive shop guaranteed a 1:1 ratio.
 
But based on what little I do know, and what I've learned here, I think I would discourage my loved ones from going on a DSD in open water unless the dive shop guaranteed a 1:1 ratio.
I very much agree with that approach, and would do the same.
 
From what I have read in other reports of other incidents and from personal experience in similar situations (OW checkout dives), the problem is that there are 2 different judgments in play in this sort of situation. These two judgments can conflict mightily.
  • The judgment of the instructor on the scene as to whether or not the situation is safe
  • The judgment of the owner of the dive operation as to whether or not the instructor will continue to be employed if his or her judgments cost the operation too much income.
 
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