1.4 ....1.6...or ?????

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Sure the convulstions are seem rather harmless.... if you weren't underwater. If you seize underwater the reg will likely fall from your mouth and your buddy's best efforts probably won't be able to get the reg back in your mouth. And after the seizure stops you should be able to breathe through a reg just fine while unconscious. You will be hard-pressed to find cases of a successful tox rescue. If you seize underwater with standard OC gear, it probably will not end well.

High PO2 exposures in the chamber are different story. It's a medical treatment for one thing. And you are not underwater, you are being tended to by a technician, and the exposures are carefully times. And if you seize, well, you just seize you don't drown.

Right, hence why I said at 130', screw that. I would be very surprised if there was ever a case of a successful tox rescue. I'm sure it's possible, considering the mammalian diving reflex makes rescuscitation possible on victims who have been underwater for an hour or more, but that's a long shot at best and a done deal at worst.

Ok well I have never any kind of course on Nitrox or dived with it, or had to do the calculations but I have heard the 1.4 limit, with 1.6 as a contingency. I was confused by this when I read a bit about chamber treatment as one story I read had the chamber set to 18m deep whilst breathing 100% oxygen (Table 62 treatment) for 60mins, which would put the ppO2 at 2.8? I do know that people under going recompression have to be watched carefully to make sure they don't seize so I guess this could be because of the oxygen content of what they are breathing?

I heard that oxygen becomes lethal at ppO2 of 2, which I guess can't be correct then given the chamber treatment. As emttim asked, some links to proper studies would be cool if anybody has some as I am interested now. The google results are many and contradictory.

I would imagine that the much higher ppO2 for chamber rides is primarily due to the fact that any medical patient who is severely injured, in a lot of pain, etc. will benefit from a high concentration of oxygen. As far as my protocols goes for EMT, any diving accident qualifies for 100% oxygen on the way to the hospital.

Why do you use those mixes when diving to 130'? Do they give you that much extra bottom time to be worth it? I am not sure so just asking how long you've spent at depth with those mixes.

No problem. :) With nitrox you can calculate Equivalent Air Depths for any planned depth and blend that you want to use and then you can just take that depth and use the Air table (although you still need to monitor your ppO2 obviously).

EANx28 is 115.5 ft and EANx26 is 119 ft. So either way you're treating the EAD as 120 ft which gives you an NDL of 13 minutes as opposed to 10 minutes on air. So you're getting 30% more bottom time. Doesn't seem like much, but say you just wanted to do 10 min at 130' instead...you end up in G pressure group instead of H, you don't hit an NDL which is a good thing, and it'll take you less surface interval time to offgas.

Here is a link to a document that shows the results of a study on the rate of Ox Tox (Both Paul Bert and Lorraine Smith) in chambers. They studied exposures up to 2.9 ATA and the study says that exposures up to 3.3 ATA are permitted under the protocol being studied. The patients in the study were all being treated for diving-related injuries.

One interesting result is that females appear to be at a significantly greater risk of a toxic event than males, at least for the parameters of this study. I make no assertion that this makes any difference in the diving environment.

http://archive.rubicon-foundation.org/dspace/bitstream/123456789/4010/1/15485081.pdf

I'll have to take a look at it, thanks for the link!
 
Right, hence why I said at 130', screw that. I would be very surprised if there was ever a case of a successful tox rescue. I'm sure it's possible, considering the mammalian diving reflex makes rescuscitation possible on victims who have been underwater for an hour or more, but that's a long shot at best and a done deal at worst.

There have been at least two, the most famous being when Andrew Georgitsis rescued a guy who had inadvertently added oxygen rather than helium to his tanks and neglected to analyze.

He began convulsing 20 minutes into a dive at 120 feet (at which point his PO2 was 2.3).


The other I know about was more benign. It started at 20 feet, two breaths into the O2 bottle.
 
...Do you happen to know why they did that?... (USN pullback to 1.3 for surface-supplied mixed gas divers)
I think it's a combination of long bottom times and the ability to precisely control the deco schedule. When you really get down to it, if you could figure out a mix that would allow very long bottom times without narcosis and without a long deco schedule, the ideal PPO2 would be 0.21 ATA, wouldn't it? Any time we elevate the ambient pressure above 1 ATA and PO2 above what we're bred to breathe (0.21) we're in an abnormal environment, and our problem becomes one of balancing risk... oxtox, narcosis, DCS, HPNS, co$t, etc, etc...
For recreational and tec/rec down to about 300' (and I'm probably never going below 250), my personal limits are 1.4/1.6 for oxygen, 120 FSW for narcotic depth, and about 2 hours total run time.
Those (personal) limits are more conservative than they were a decade ago, and they're likely to be more conservative still in another decade. By the time I'm 80 I'll probably retire everything but my original 72 and single hose reg, and only dive air to 40' in bathing-suit warm water :)
Rick
 
There have been at least two, the most famous being when Andrew Georgitsis rescued a guy who had inadvertently added oxygen rather than helium to his tanks and neglected to analyze.

He began convulsing 20 minutes into a dive at 120 feet (at which point his PO2 was 2.3).


The other I know about was more benign. It started at 20 feet, two breaths into the O2 bottle.

That's pretty awesome that there's been some saves from that. Happen to have any links to the stories? I'm just curious about the medical side of it, as far as the treatment they received by EMS and then at the hospital...I've been taught to avoid convulsions, rescue an unconscious diver, etc. but I know very little about the treatment involved with a near-drowning victim who has a possibly very high ppO2 in his/her system at that point in time. I'm not sure if the treatment would be any different than a normal near-drowning victim, but hey never hurts to learn more.

I could just imagine EMS giving the patient 100% oxygen with a non-rebreather mask, the pt convulsing again, and then them freaking out and thinking the patient is having a grand mal seizure, lol. 'Cause all we covered in EMT school was to give 100% oxygen to diving accidents...that was pretty much the extent of it. :P
 
...I could just imagine EMS giving the patient 100% oxygen with a non-rebreather mask, the pt convulsing again...
Won't happen. CNS Oxtox ceases and dissolved PO2 levels drop quite rapidly with a decrease in pressure. Unlike N2, which must be offgassed mechanically through the lungs, oxygen is both metabolized in the tissue and scavenged actively by hemoglobin; tissue levels drop to normal almost as fast as the pressure does. There may be residual damage that needs to heal (the damage is why we need air breaks and the clock limits, not offgassing), and the patient may be more susceptable to pulmonary tox because of damage already done, but CNS toxicity at 1 ATA just isn't a factor.
Rick
 
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And even with a nonrebreather mask, you can't actually get inhaled oxygen percentages much above 70%. You have to use a sealing mask and bag somebody to get a true 100% O2, which is only a ppO2 of 1.0.
 
Saves "can" happen but I think luck has more to do w/ it more than anything else. The WKPP has procedures written for it, and go so far as to recommend the use of FFM's for extended O2 exposures (they do some looooooonnnnnggg deco). They look dated so I'm not sure if these are still used or not, but interesting procedure to read.

Oxygen Toxicity Protocol | Global Underwater Explorers
 
That's pretty awesome that there's been some saves from that. Happen to have any links to the stories?

The 'tox at 20' story is somewhere on thedecostop.com. I may be able to find it. Here's the full text of Andrew's writeup regarding his rescue:

On this list, in our GUE classes, and within our projects we have consistently reiterated that divers must carefully identify the true risk of a given dive. With gas diving, oxygen toxicity remains the most consistent and yet often under appreciated risk. Irresponsible mixing, convoluted marking/procedures, and careless divers are almost exclusively the culprit in these cases. The following actual account depicts an all too common over confidence that nearly cost one diver their life. I encourage everyone to read this report and to appreciate the risk to which divers expose themselves and their team.



While conducting a Tech 1 in Croatia this last week we were faced with the following incident, one that should prove educational to all. It is for this reason that we wanted to bring it public attention. The course was conducted in Croatia, on an Island called Pag. The initial part of the training, DIR fundamentals and critical skills went well, with students undergoing training with myself and Richard Lundgren. After two days of fundamentals and 4 days of critical skills training, we were ready to move forward to the experience portion of the class. During this portion, the students plan and execute two dives to a max depth of 36 m, on a 30/30 triox mix and decompress on Nitrox 50.



The logistics of the course were coordinated by the local dive facility. The owner of the facility was involved with the class. Upon returning from the sixth day of training, Diver X who also is the facility owner, began the nightly filling process for the next day of diving. Oddly enough in Croatia, the same valve fitting (threads) is used for all gases, facilitating confusion for those that are not properly vigilant. In fact, diver X confused the supply bottles, accidentally filling oxygen instead of Helium into his own back tanks. Failing to heed the directions of his instructors to properly analyze his gasses, diver X marked all his cylinders as analyzed while, in fact, his back tanks were never analyzed. Clearly such a mistake placed the diver and his team at tremendous risk; in this instance it almost cost him his life. Individuals must bear in mind that these actions do not occur in a vacuum, and that rescuers and other team members are compromised when they must take extreme actions to safeguard the safety of other members.



Following the execution of all pre-dive drills (conducted in seven minutes) both groups proceeded with their dive. Nineteen minutes into the dive, Diver X gently flashed me with his light to get my attention. He pulled his regulator out of his mouth (as if he was giving me an OOA) but instead began to convulse at 36m. I immediately donated my regulator, grabbed his harness (with my left hand) and tried to put a regulator in his mouth. His convulsions were very strong and I could not initially get the regulator in his mouth. I proceeded to swim him closer to the wall to avoid being swept away by the current. Diver X convulsed for a solid two minutes. We then started up, my right arm under his right arm, holding him firmly while keeping the regulator in his mouth. During this process I tried to remain conscious of maintaining an open airway.



We then proceed up, with the help of my assistant, controlling all buoyancy with my left hand. It took about one minute to reach 17m; there Diver X began to convulse again. Following this convulsion I slowly led him to the surface. Upon surfacing, I called for the surface support boat, which initiated an emergency response. I removed my mask and his and prepared to start mouth-to-mouth breathing. Fortunately he was breathing, making this unnecessary. We then removed his gear and put him on the Zodiac. Upon establishing that all divers were safely at the surface with no need for additional decompression, we decided to start back to the dock, where we could meet the ambulance. During the ride to shore, Diver X began to come around, his color improved and his breathing became more rhythmic. We administered oxygen during the return trip to the dock and by the time we had arrived, he was feeling and looking much better. Upon reaching the dock the ambulance took over, taking him to the hospital for further testing.



Further testing proved that there was no lung damage or bends and only as a precaution did they treat him for near drowning.



Subsequent analysis proved that Diver X's cylinders had been improperly marked. At this point we re-analyzed all diving cylinders, demonstrating that the only improper marking had been on Diver X's cylinders. It turns out that although his tanks were marked for 30/30 he was, in fact, breathing 50.1%.



Although this event ended well it was clearly filled with dangerous potential. All divers should use this as yet another example of the importance in following careful procedures for gas analyzation and tank marking. This must be the case whether they fill themselves or whether others fill the tanks for them. In this particular case Diver X allowed his personal filling of the tanks and the accuracy of the other mixes to induce a false sense of confidence. The diver later told me that he is keenly aware of his error, embarrassed by his arrogance and grateful to be alive.



It is my hope that this account will help others realize that short cuts often fail and seemingly impossible things can and do occur. Ignoring the proper procedures can cause an accident very quickly.



Andrew Georgitsis

GUE Training Director
 
For recreational and tec/rec down to about 300' (and I'm probably never going below 250), my personal limits are 1.4/1.6 for oxygen, 120 FSW for narcotic depth, and about 2 hours total run time.
Those (personal) limits are more conservative than they were a decade ago, and they're likely to be more conservative still in another decade. By the time I'm 80 I'll probably retire everything but my original 72 and single hose reg, and only dive air to 40' in bathing-suit warm water :)
Rick

Thanks for the info.

Nice. At least you have something to look forward to :)
 
One of the respected people at my local dive shop told me he lived through an Oxtox incident. He surfaced unconscious and was damned lucky. I asked, dumbfounded that I was staring at an Oxtox anomaly, and he told me how it happened (most of which I hate to say I forgot, save for the parallel lines he was following in-between the up-lines).

I think I was pretty wide-eyed the whole time he was piecing together what he remembered and was told, but - taking into consideration as to who it was and how it happened - it made perfect sense that no-one should expect to be lucky (nor lucky as he was) with Oxygen toxicity. It isn't narcosis.
 

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