PADI Rescue Diver question

[TMHeimer]

My understanding is that PADI sets minimum prerequisites and standards and dive shops and instructors are free to require more (but not less). Personally, I appreciate a dive shop that takes diving seriously enough to risk losing customers to shops that train divers to minimum standards.

I do admire a shop RECOMMENDING further training. But aside from the standards violation pointed out, I have another pet peeve. Standards should be high enough that no shop should feel adding another course should be necessary. Whatever the standards are, they should be the same for all PADI shops, without exception. If they are too low (OR too high), they should be changed for all. A side thought I've had on Oxygen: I learned in Rescue in '06 how to assemble and use the O2 kit. Then again in '09 in DM class. The other 3 DMCs at the time had just finished Rescue. None of us assembled the thing perfectly. Unless you own a kit or DM regularly, you will probably miss a point or 2. I asked my shop owner to go over it again slowly, and I made a list of the steps. I know this stuff is super simple, but why not have it on the tip of your tongue? Idea: Simple instructions laminated and attatched to the kit, so even an untrained lay person could use it if no one else is around.

 

[beanojones]

that is NOT correct - they cannot require more for certification.

That is not really how it works with con-ed. OW, AOW are on the program, where the Minimums=Maximums. This is for educational theoretical concerns, because those divers can easily be overwhelmed with instructor's yammering on about whatever they yammer on about in OW and AOW courses, and more yammer ends up with less safety, and a new diver remembering odd facts instead of the core important required information. Thus the point about Minimum-Maximums, and the associated standard for that one.

For the Specialties, for DM, and to a lesser extent for Rescue, there are minimums to the courses brought about by environmental restrictions (and not the desire to restrict the teaching of con-ed to a minimum level for theoretical educational reasons), and every course can and should exceed those minimum to the degree to which local conditions permit, and the certifying instructor's knowledge and experience permits. Sometimes local conditions only allow the minimum to be met in one facet of a given course. No actual local conditions make it so that only program minimums are possible across the board, but they may require it in one specific facet of the course. So the minimums for con-ed are in fact minimums, meant to be exceeded as local conditions permit.

Instructor are supposed to flush out con-ed minimums with extensive local application.

If I lived in an area without regular chamber availability or extensive local diving activity, I would certainly consider requiring O2 provider for Rescue certification. And that addition would a perfect example of extending con-ed courses to reflect local conditions.

 

[explorer08]

Interesting that nobody mentioned the IMHO most interesting way of teaching the Emergency Oxgene Provider course.
It's in combination with Rescue. If you do it that way it counts for Rescue Exercise No.9. So as an instructor I can sell two courses instead of one, safe a lot of instruction time and the student has the benefit of much more profound knowledge of the topic than just by the Rescue course.
I am doing that for quite a while meanwhile and my students like it (and me too ).

 

[Bob DBF]

I've completed my AOW, have 50 post-certification dives, and taken the Red Cross course on CPR, AED, and Emergency First Aid.

The dive shop states the oxygen provider course is a required pre-req to Rescue Diver, while PADI's website states it's a recommended course after Rescue Diver. I understand the merits of taking the O2 course and I'm sure I'll take it on my way to DM, but is the O2 course really required PRIOR to Rescue?

TIA, as always!

Well, chapter 5 of the rescue diver manual covers emergency use of O2. During the pool phase of my rescue class the instructor went over the use and had everyone set up for use and break down an put away the equipment. It was also done at the beach along with CPR and use of AED. I passed Rescue.

It may be a good thing to take the O2 course, but requireing an unnecessary class rather than having to sell it to you is somewhere around unethical. Check around for other Rescue classes, all agencies sell them.



Bob
------------------------
I may have been born at night but it wasn't last night.

 

[awetmedic]

My understanding is that PADI sets minimum prerequisites and standards and dive shops and instructors are free to require more (but not less). Personally, I appreciate a dive shop that takes diving seriously enough to risk losing customers to shops that train divers to minimum standards.

PADI instructors can not deviate from the material and may not add more material to their course and call it a PADI course. NAUI allows more information for local conditions and at the instructors discretion to be added as long as the ANSI and NAUI minimum skills are completed.

 

[boulderjohn]

PADI instructors can not deviate from the material and may not add more material to their course and call it a PADI course.

Several people, including me, have told you several times that this is essentially incorrect, and we have even told you how to deal with the very technical reading of this "rule" that you keep bringing up. In the real world, it is a non-issue. In your world it seems to be everything. Since you have been corrected multiple times and keep on insisting on it, I wonder which of the following is true:

1. You are ignoring information to the contrary of your opinion and have not even noticed it

2. You are intentionally repeating misinformation for a reason related to a personal agenda of some sorts.

Or is there a third possibility?

 

[awetmedic]

Several people, including me, have told you several times that this is essentially incorrect, and we have even told you how to deal with the very technical reading of this "rule" that you keep bringing up. In the real world, it is a non-issue. In your world it seems to be everything. Since you have been corrected multiple times and keep on insisting on it, I wonder which of the following is true:

1. You are ignoring information to the contrary of your opinion and have not even noticed it

2. You are intentionally repeating misinformation for a reason related to a personal agenda of some sorts.

Or is there a third possibility?

You simply can not deviate from standards. You must apply for any course changes and those changes must be approved with a waiver.

WAIVERS
When unusual training situations arise, PADI Members may apply for waivers
to deviate from specific PADI Standards. Waivers are granted only for very
exceptional circumstances and only when the waived requirement will not
jeopardize the development of essential skills or the safety of student divers
in training.
1. Before implementing any exception to PADI Standards, you must apply
in writing for, and receive, a waiver from PADI.
a. Because waivers are granted to individuals, not facilities, all dive
center/resort staff members need to apply individually if they are
likely to encounter the same training situation.
b. Requests must include specific descriptions of the situation and
rationale for the deviation.
2. If granted, a waiver is valid for one year from the date of issuance – you
must reapply annually to keep it current.
a. Waivers may become invalid if superceded by a standards revision
pertaining to the waived requirement.
b. If the specific training circumstances or logistics change, evaluate
whether you still need to deviate from standards. If so, request a new
waiver that reflects the new circumstances.

There is more material from PADI in the membership agreement, it is section #8 that also details that you can not deviate from standards. There are articles in the undersea journal and more.

PADI mentions adherence to standards just about everywhere in its material.

The Quality Management Program’s primary objective is to ensure that all PADI Members understand the importance of using PADI’s educational system and adhere to PADI Standards.

On the other hand, when members deviate from standards, the Quality Management Program acts to get them back on track to avoid future problems. The Quality Management Procedures flowchart provides you with an overview of the quality assurance process.

8. I understand and agree that all members (individuals, dive centers and resorts)
involved in the training of a particular student, as determined by student certification
records at PADI, are responsible for adherence to PADI, DSAT and/or EFR Standards,
as appropriate, during the conduct of that training. The Training and Quality
Management Department will communicate with all involved members upon receipt of
reports or any other information indicating possible violations of Standards and
Procedures.

With all the information that PADI puts out about adherence to standards, I have no idea where you get your information from.



I am guessing that you have never taken a PADI instructor course and you have not learned that you can niether add nor subtract from a course unless you have it in writing, then you must abide by that written statement.

 

[Simon-]

In my mind, deviation from the standards would be where you wished to change the standard. Bear in mind, the standards (as related to specific courses) are the minimum performance requirements, and you would not be in breach for exceeding them.

1. Confined water - CESA exercise. PADI Standard states "at least 9m". So, if you get them to cover 12m are you in breach of standards? No
2. Confined water - Free flowing regulator - PADI standard states "at least 30 secs". If you get them to do it for 1 min are you in breach of standards? No

Does it state anywhere in the standards that I cannot get the students to perform the skills neutrally buoyant? No, but I do. Breach of standards? No

 

[Thalassamania]

You need hands on with the tanks so you don't fumble in a real emergency and not know how to operate the equipment

Yes, but what you need is yearly, or twice yearly assemble, provide, breakdown. While 4 hours may be needed the first time out of the gate (I think it is a bit excessive), what is the student really going to be able to do two years later?

 

[Simon-]

Yes, but what you need is yearly, or twice yearly assemble, provide, breakdown. While 4 hours may be needed the first time out of the gate (I think it is a bit excessive), what is the student really going to be able to do two years later?

Totally agree. The same can be said for many things people are taught, not just diving.

What's the old saying "if you don't use it, you lose it"