DIR Halcyon question

[nadwidny]

While (as mentioned earlier) this isn't exactly true, I think it is interesting to note that one of the major authors of the GUE/DIR way is Jarrod Jablonski, who is (maybe was) the CEO of Halcyon.

Blister

This isn't news and has been rehashed over and over and over for several years now.

Where's that "Beating a dead horse" animation when I need it?

 

[tceylan]

Not to open a can of worms, but I have a sincere question after reading this thread;

The last time I looked Halcyon (eclipse) BP/W single setup had some padding/cloth
behind the BP. It is either to store an SMB or some padding for comfort... Don't
remember exactly. I saw this package in an LDS.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it didn't look DIR to me at all... I thought an important principle
behind DIR was not to take unnecessary (and/or non-standard) equipment.

 

[TSandM]

There's some kind of a flap to hold a large liftbag behind your back. I don't think that violates any principle of DIR that I know; if you need a large liftbag, you need a streamlined, efficient place to put it.

 

[MonkSeal]

I never once said I WASN'T going to get a halcyon, I just said I was leaning towards OMS for the reasons I stated, and this thread already likely changed my mind about the single shoulder release and go with a continuous harness!

I've never mentioned Halcyon; I wrote that it was better to make good choice at first purchase then to buy twice.

And, no, I didn't say DIR people require me to agree with them, just you.

Interesting. Be so kind to point me to sentence where I require this.

Thankfully, everyone else has been extremely helpful.

Good for you.

If you felt that my original questions were answered earlier, there was no need to put your little BTW comment about advice, which clearly was unwarranted.

Usually when some thread develops, new questions arise. Usualy people answer or make commnts to these new questios.

How you decided I was prejudice is beyond me.

Based on experiance in such discussions; you proved I was right with following statement:

You are the one that assumed I was talking about DIR divers in general. I just come to expect one every time I ask a question in regards to DIR.

Everything I wrote in my first post was more or less repeated later by others. Somehow you agree with them and don't agree with me. I don't have any problem with this, since this is just Internet discussion and nobody should be ofended. I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your words.

At the end, I strongly recomend you to take GUE-F class; besides your questions being answered, you'll see that GUE instructors are much better in giving advices then some DIR divers, including me

 

[danvolker]

While (as mentioned earlier) this isn't exactly true, I think it is interesting to note that one of the major authors of the GUE/DIR way is Jarrod Jablonski, who is (maybe was) the CEO of Halcyon.

Blister

This is all easy to check on if you hit the archives on the cavers or tech list. Back in the early 90's, cave divers had to "create" decent gear, because NONE of the manufacturers would make anything but nonsense for real cave diving. Well before George and Jarrod, there was Bill Main and Parker Turner, and many other guys collaborating on the best sources for a backplate ( or how to get an ideal one made from scratch...the best way to make a harness for it...and how to create a set of wings . And on and on. These guys did research beyond belief, and were great at making their own stuff. While George Irvine and Jarrod Jablonski were doing there big dives in Wakulla in mid 90's, one of George's friends began diving more with them---Robert Carmichael, who happened to run Brownies Third Lung. Robert had been a tinkerer since childhood, and he had an factory for Brownie that had an awesome new development capability for new fabrications of metal, fabric, just about anything. Robert would hear George and Jarrod being pissed all the time after they got off the phone with dive Rite, or OMS, or Scubapro, or any of the majors---they repeatedly tried to get special gear created for cave diving--they had a pretty good guarantee of an initial market for these guys--but it was not enough for the mass market mentality of the majors. So Carmichael stepped up to the plate, and offered to take the designs the WKPP was using, and begin limited runs for them. George and Jarrod loved this, and the first run was a huge hit--the brand name was Halcyon..the DIR Equipment Company. The entire design was what the DIR community had come up with itself, and tried to get each of the majors to agree to. Halcyon became the DIR brand, because only Carmichael would use his factory for this.
Robert kept tinkering with Halcyon products, making little changes almost every few months...all working with WKPP team member feedback. this went on for years. To make a long story shorter, ultimately Robert passed Halcyon to Jarrod, after most of the tinkering was done. As you would also know, Jarrod was just WKPP through the 90's, and while George and I were doing DIR demos around the US around 1999, Jarrod was constantly getting bombarded by requests for instruction----but the WKPP was not an entity that could take on training for non-team members ( and team members were mentored--this being quite a different approach). Ultimately the global requests drove JJ to form GUE, and begin limited training. While you know George Irvine had been on a mission to save people from unsafe diving practices, JJ was active through the 90's on this also...as was I.
While there was no "adventure" in doing GUE instruction, it fullfilled JJ's desire to help divers diver safer and achieve more enjoyment at the same time--for them to get better adventures.
My point is that there was no advertising conspiracy.....Halcyon is the DIR company because the other manufacturers did not care about how well the gear protected the cave or technical diver--they cared about the colors, the pockets, the fancy bells and whistles--they cared about what they thought they could sell alot of. Halcyon was never about that, and never will be.

Just as a side note on Halcyon mentality, around 1999 my friend Jim Abernethy was swimming with a fish on a spear , trying to place it on a sponge, where he could get a good shark photo and background....what he did not see was the 16 foot hammerhead behind him ( he was visually tracking several other large bulls). All of a sudden, he found himself flying through the water, without having to kick anymore---and felt some pressure....the hammer had bitten down on his side, but the teeth hit the backplate on one side, and the halcyon wing on the other. The wing was so tough, that only small punctures got through--no tearing...Jimmy had a moon shaped cresent on his but where the teeth went through the wing, but they were more like a funky tatoo than something you would worry about...I don't know if he even went to the doctor. He did go around showing everyone though
In any event, he calls me, and asks if I can get Carmichael to warranty a 27 pound Halcyon wing that has holes in it--and of course, should not have holes in it. Carmichael and I saw the wing, heard the story, and Jimmy walked out with a brand new wing , a warranty replacement.

DanV

 

[RJP]

I guess I'm one of those people that usually buys more than I need and then trims it down later.

But that's not what you're talking about.

Your approach seems like "buying something you don't need now, and then replacing it later."

That's not usually the type of redundancy DIR advocates.

 

[HullBlister]

Dan, thanks a lot for that informative post. I love reading about stuff like that.

Blister

 

[cave_diver]

This is all easy to check on if you hit the archives on the cavers or tech list. Back in the early 90's, cave divers had to "create" decent gear, because NONE of the manufacturers would make anything but nonsense for real cave diving. Well before George and Jarrod, there was Bill Main and Parker Turner, and many other guys collaborating on the best sources for a backplate ( or how to get an ideal one made from scratch...the best way to make a harness for it...and how to create a set of wings . And on and on. These guys did research beyond belief, and were great at making their own stuff. While George Irvine and Jarrod Jablonski were doing there big dives in Wakulla in mid 90's, one of George's friends began diving more with them---Robert Carmichael, who happened to run Brownies Third Lung. Robert had been a tinkerer since childhood, and he had an factory for Brownie that had an awesome new development capability for new fabrications of metal, fabric, just about anything. Robert would hear George and Jarrod being pissed all the time after they got off the phone with dive Rite, or OMS, or Scubapro, or any of the majors---they repeatedly tried to get special gear created for cave diving--they had a pretty good guarantee of an initial market for these guys--but it was not enough for the mass market mentality of the majors. So Carmichael stepped up to the plate, and offered to take the designs the WKPP was using, and begin limited runs for them. George and Jarrod loved this, and the first run was a huge hit--the brand name was Halcyon..the DIR Equipment Company. The entire design was what the DIR community had come up with itself, and tried to get each of the majors to agree to. Halcyon became the DIR brand, because only Carmichael would use his factory for this.
Robert kept tinkering with Halcyon products, making little changes almost every few months...all working with WKPP team member feedback. this went on for years. To make a long story shorter, ultimately Robert passed Halcyon to Jarrod, after most of the tinkering was done. As you would also know, Jarrod was just WKPP through the 90's, and while George and I were doing DIR demos around the US around 1999, Jarrod was constantly getting bombarded by requests for instruction----but the WKPP was not an entity that could take on training for non-team members ( and team members were mentored--this being quite a different approach). Ultimately the global requests drove JJ to form GUE, and begin limited training. While you know George Irvine had been on a mission to save people from unsafe diving practices, JJ was active through the 90's on this also...as was I.
While there was no "adventure" in doing GUE instruction, it fullfilled JJ's desire to help divers diver safer and achieve more enjoyment at the same time--for them to get better adventures.
My point is that there was no advertising conspiracy.....Halcyon is the DIR company because the other manufacturers did not care about how well the gear protected the cave or technical diver--they cared about the colors, the pockets, the fancy bells and whistles--they cared about what they thought they could sell alot of. Halcyon was never about that, and never will be.

Just as a side note on Halcyon mentality, around 1999 my friend Jim Abernethy was swimming with a fish on a spear , trying to place it on a sponge, where he could get a good shark photo and background....what he did not see was the 16 foot hammerhead behind him ( he was visually tracking several other large bulls). All of a sudden, he found himself flying through the water, without having to kick anymore---and felt some pressure....the hammer had bitten down on his side, but the teeth hit the backplate on one side, and the halcyon wing on the other. The wing was so tough, that only small punctures got through--no tearing...Jimmy had a moon shaped cresent on his but where the teeth went through the wing, but they were more like a funky tatoo than something you would worry about...I don't know if he even went to the doctor. He did go around showing everyone though
In any event, he calls me, and asks if I can get Carmichael to warranty a 27 pound Halcyon wing that has holes in it--and of course, should not have holes in it. Carmichael and I saw the wing, heard the story, and Jimmy walked out with a brand new wing , a warranty replacement.

DanV

Great story! I'm glad that Halcyon is still around!

 

[flareless]

There's some kind of a flap to hold a large liftbag behind your back. I don't think that violates any principle of DIR that I know; if you need a large liftbag, you need a streamlined, efficient place to put it.

I have this Halcyon MC Storage Pak (no pic in link) on my kit. It's affixed with zip ties on all points except the top left and bottom right. This provides plenty of space to get in and tighten/loosen the wing nuts.

It also provides a LOT of space in a pretty much unused area. I've got a finger spool rigged to my lift bag and stowed in that space. The dump valve on the lift bag sits in the well created by the dip in the backplate. This is handy because it doesn't protrude into my back and poke me. The reel is clipped off to the bottom, un-zipped grommet and stays firmly in place. If I have to float the bag I unclip the reel and pull the whole thing out in one motion (I've tried a few stowing fold methods until I got one that works great).

One last note about the Storage Pak; It's not so much a "pad" as a covering. The back-pad on my OMS kit was nice and puffy. Comfortable yes. Floaty....YES. The Halcyon is basically one piece of material with a few stretch pouches sewn on. The weight of the small amount of fabric is basically offset by the weight of the grommets. I find it to be an excellent add-on to the kit.

 

[David P]

Clammy, question for ya... why wait until you are ready for tech and cave diving to take fundies? It is called GUE Fundamentals. "GUE Fundamentals
Purpose
The GUE Fundamentals course is designed to cultivate the essential techniques required by all sound diving practice, irrespective of level or environment"

why wait until you have a bunch of dives and have "bad habits" engrained that you have to relearn?