Routing a 5ft Octo Hose

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Drewski:
Try convincing GUE/DIR to get into NEW diver instruction.

They have been working on an OW program for some time.

There are many instructors for the standard agencies that successfully teach with long hose configurations, so I really don't believe that it is against agency standards, anyhow since I know PADI, SSI, and NAUI instructors that do so.
 
Bismark:
Drewski,
Well Said. I wanted to add something to your comment but you pretty much covered it all.

The part about the reason behind the long hosed primary and the snatching of such, or the 'not in the training standard' part?

Either way his assumptions here are both incorrect.

The reason behind primary donation is that you know that reg works, the reason for the long hose is that it will manage in all situations.

Nothing in any standard prevents being taught long-hose/bungied back-up only.

Of course you need to know that you require the donor to be mildly awake and realize the OOA has gone so relatively recently (they've probably been taught the buddy system and OOA signals one would hope).........I have no idea where the concept of just snatching regs out of someones mouth is the preferred protocol, because it isn't. The preferred method is to have the team be on the same page and aware of each other all the time,...the donor knows his buddy is OOG a split second after the stricken diver, and even though a signal is always given, the donor usually catches it at about the same time, donate known working reg, go to back-up. It can be done with your eyes closed and you're not left looking like a 3-handed monkey searching for crap in the golden triangle nor is the stricken diver left chewing on a reg that was last tested for proper operation who knows when.

The true reality of OOA sit's with the 'typical' set-up seen most often is that it is a cluster at the time when you need it to be streamlined the most. If anyone thinks the Padi video where it is shown how to proceed with an OOA and subsequent ascent(The one kneeling face to face on the bottom and both divers know what drill they're going to do next...cue camera...) is how it plays out in real life, you need a serious reality check.

Actually what you really need is a real-life scare the *** off of you OOA at depth, but that gets a little costly on human life as has been shown repeatedly, and is not the preferred method of learning IMO.
 
:popcorn: So what is going on? Teach students (who should be concurrent in knowledge) the old way. But after you get in.... well then you can feel free to dive the much safer way. I have yet to read just ONE valid reason for not diving the long hose primary. All thats left me to believe the agencies that teach diving are about as flexible to new ways as governments are. Thats not good. So it could happen in 5>6 years......yaaaaaaa
 
Scuba_Steve:
Of course you need to know that you require the donor to be mildly awake and realize the OOA has gone so relatively recently (they've probably been taught the buddy system and OOA signals one would hope).........I have no idea where the concept of just snatching regs out of someones mouth is the preferred protocol, because it isn't. The preferred method is to have the team be on the same page and aware of each other all the time,...the donor knows his buddy is OOG a split second after the stricken diver, and even though a signal is always given, the donor usually catches it at about the same time, donate known working reg, go to back-up.
But see, what YOU said isn't the REAL world of "sport" recreational diving. It's the world according to GUE/DIR.

First off, the average "Joe" or "Jane" diver is just NOT that aware underwater. With good visibility and a 30 to 40 FT bottom, I'd say the average separation distance might be 10 to 15 FT, if not more. Natural obstructions such as coral might also get in the way. Now, in that depth of water if you or I went OOA, We'd probably just do a swimming ascent and be done with it. But is that what the "average diver" would do? More than likely, following their "training," they will go for the buddy. If they approached from behind or the side, the "donor" buddy won't see them. If they are desperate for air, the OOA diver WILL grab before they ask.

Here's my point: if the OOA diver is trained to "buddy breath" with an octopus, they will look for and grab an octopus. If the octopus is NOT being used by the donor, clearly marked and easily accessible, grabbing it won't compromise the donor. BUT, if the "octopus" is in use by the donor, the person OOA will probably "snatch" it from the donor’s mouth, because the position of the "back-up" regulator (on the necklace) prevents it from being used for air sharing. Remember - most agencies train people OOA to go for the octopus. If the donor buddy is only marginally proficient - and God help him or her if they learned this "technique" from ScubaBoard and decided to use it without training or practice - they could very easily be compromised. Again, one problem becomes two.

The truth of it is that of the thousands of recreational divers in the world, only a small percentage dive regularly, let alone in "complex" environments. A good percentage of divers are "vacation" divers that look at diving as something they do occasionally and purely for fun. They DON'T want to have a bunch of equipment, go through long courses and complex drills and then go diving in a fashion that requires good situational awareness, "team" relationships and "on the fly" planning. It's NOT them.

They ONLY want to put on a tank, drop to the 35 FT bottom and look at all the pretty fishes. They don't want to be bothered with all the other stuff. Some of these folks have the "awareness" of a 16 year old talking on a cell phone while driving on the interstate. It's less a function of training and more a function of practice. "Easy" diving also seduces these folks into "laid back" attitudes. This might be OK in 30 FT off Cozumel, but change the environment and it becomes problematic.

So, knowing this, how do shops and agencies "train" these folks initially to minimize their risk? The answer is, keep it SIMPLE. Stick to the basics, emphasize simple procedures and methods, make it EASY. I don't agree with this for a LOT of diving, but there it is. When the OP in this thread asked his question about long hose mounting and use, the FACT is that the shop (and ultimately the certification agency) wants it done a certain way. They do this because it allows them to develop their "market" by certifying people in a way that gets them done. A new diver might be marginal, but they know the basics. The other choice is NOT to teach that way and that means a market "shift." Unless ALL the shops and agencies change, it WON'T work at the NEW diver level and it WILL drive "longer" and more “complex” programs out of business.

IMO, what many GUE/DIR people on this board miss is the economic position of the industry. Although the demand for GUE/DIR is certainly there, it's only a niche market. I'll say it again, if GUE/DIR wants to train people "right" using the DIR standard, start teaching NEW diver courses! This way GUE/DIR can dictate the entry level "standards" and if a TRUE market-wide demand exists, other agencies will get the point and begin to move. BUT, as long as DIR courses only operate outside the NEW diver level, "changing the world" is kind of difficult. When a GUE/DIR shop opens in a NAUI/PADI/SSI market region, teaches NEW diver courses ONLY using DIR standards (including a "proficient to pass" philosophy) and SUCCESSFULLY starts certifying a bunch of new divers in such a market, THEN GUE/DIR will have something.

Until that time, NEW diver standards and the use of octopus hoses are the way they are.
 
You spoke earlier of how they should go for the "clearly visible octopus". In the real world, most people who donate the octo don't have it clearly visible; it's zipped away in a pocket somewhere or clipped off where the OOA diver can't easily access it.

Ironically enough, where I volunteer with scuba course, approx. 100 new students every semester are taught to pass from the mouth, and they're all college age "distracted" kids, brand new to scuba, and they don't have issues with it.
Donating from the mouth just makes morer sense. The ONLY possible advantage of passing an octo is that at least one diver (hopefully) has a reg in their mouth the whole time. This argument is then nullified by the argument that the donating diver should be the calm diver, who has no problems taking a reg out of his or her mouth and giving it to another diver.
If they have issues with that, they probably shouldn't be diving in the first place.

You've been speaking of how GUE should start up an OW course, aka the law of primacy. Yet you contradict yourself, saying that you should teach new divers to hand off the octo, and if they get deeper into diving they should learn to pass from the mouth. Learn to pass from the mouth first. This isn't a GUE/DIR/tech/cave thing we're talking about here...it's a common sense thing. Donate the reg that works, that you KNOW where it is, that isn't filled with gunk. Most people, if you explained the advantages and disadvantages of each method, would probably choose to pass from the mouth. It's really the smartest way to go.
 
Cheekymonkey:
Well with an open water student its definetly nice to have the Octo already deployed and ready to stick in their mouth when your doing skills that require the reg to be out of mouth.
:confused: Because...why? They can't find either of their two regs?
 
SparticleBrane:
:confused: Because...why? They can't find either of their two regs?

LOL.

of course!!!!

You're making way too much sense for these characters to comprehend. lol.
 
Sometimes (and I have been guilty of this in the past), instructors have a tendencey to help too much, thus babying the student.
You're not their mother, don't baby them. All it does is create dependency. They need to learn to think, not depend on something else.

"Hmm...my regulator is out of my mouth...guess I'll go to my instructor for air!!" instead of putting your own reg back in your mouth. :rolleyes:
 
SparticleBrane:
Sometimes (and I have been guilty of this in the past), instructors have a tendencey to help too much, thus babying the student.
You're not their mother, don't baby them. All it does is create dependency. They need to learn to think, not depend on something else.

"Hmm...my regulator is out of my mouth...guess I'll go to my instructor for air!!" instead of putting your own reg back in your mouth. :rolleyes:

You need to have this discussion with a few Instructors on this board in the I to I Forum. They are creating wholely useless divers because they ask nothing of them at all and they will excuse you to death like an 8 yr old why they do it that way. :wink:
 

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