Cookie vs REM vs TEM

[mr_v]

My piggy tail is mostly REMs with 2-3 arrows for "lost diver" scenarios. Yes, 2-3 arrows, just in case if I drop one.

Some dive buddies use cookies - I have no issues with that.

Please, use individual markers.

 

[DiveLikeAMuppet]

Honestly I feel that REMs work really well as long as very few people use them (exploration). REMs would get really confusing with all the additional meanings if everyone was using REMs...

 

[mr_v]

Honestly I feel that REMs work really well as long as very few people use them (exploration). REMs would get really confusing with all the additional meanings if everyone was using REMs...

How are other people's markers confusing?

 

[macado]

I don't believe in Team Markers. Individual cookies and REMs allow everyone to be somewhat actively involved in the navigational decisions and help re-enforce this. Everyone in the team is making a conscious effort to place a marker on the line. While they could just be blindly doing this while playing follow the leader my hope is that it provides a little more situation awareness rather than simply trusting someone dropping a team cookie and not paying attention to their surroundings. It's another data point and in my opinion can remove some ambiguity. In the event of real separation I know they've left the cave and I can trace their steps due to their lack of cookies on the line.

Sure there are exceptions to be made in popular passages and caves and I'm not going to speak with absolute authority here but I prefer everyone in the team puts down their own cookie/REM. I don't have a strong argument for cookie vs. REM I just don't really see the problem REMs solve for.

My cookies are actually directedly marked (only to me) so I guess I sort of use them as REMs anyway.

 

[lukeb]

I love my REMs. They are distinctive to me and I know I can follow them and pretty much ignore whatever else is in the cave because I am trusting the markers I have just put down. Plus since my REMs are not arrows, and are obviously not part of the system navigation markings, I am not risking confusing other divers if I am taking a different route out than what the closest system arrow says.

 

[ofg-1]

I have a problem with REM's. I was taught that REM stood for 'Rear Echelon Motherfarker". I used arrows and pins.

 

[kensuf]

There have been fatalities where arrows placed facing the wrong way have likely contributed to confusion.

Because of this, I don't use arrows at all. Cookies or REMS are the way. I don't use REMS personally, but I see no problems with them and can see that they may provide a backup form of navigation beyond simply marking the exit (mark the exit AND sort of point the way out). If you're going to go the REMS route just commit to it, don't both with cookies and REMS.

 

[ofg-1]

There have been fatalities where arrows placed facing the wrong way have likely contributed to confusion.

Although it is difficult to quantify, there are numerous people that have been saved by line arrows and gold line. When I started, there were neither. You had clothespins and cave line. Between Lou Hotzendorff and Forrest Wilson, and their directional markers, numerous people have been able to find an exit, my guess is far more than the misplaced arrow fatalities.

Also, I have seen abandoned cookies and/or REM's, and/or clothespins. People do traverses or jump off a tee and just never go back for their markers. In some of the more traveled caves, there are several. If you put one in, take it out.

 

[kensuf]

Although it is difficult to quantify, there are numerous people that have been saved by line arrows and gold line. When I started, there were neither. You had clothespins and cave line. Between Lou Hotzendorff and Forrest Wilson, and their directional markers, numerous people have been able to find an exit, my guess is far more than the misplaced arrow fatalities.

No question about it, arrows save lives. Attached is a photo of Bill Hursts slate to remind us of why we have arrows to begin with.

My concern is when people place arrows on a line that points away from the nearest exit. For instance, if someone swam from P1 along the Olsen line up and jumped over to the crossover tunnel. If they used an arrow to mark "their" exit at P1, it would be countermanding arrows on the line and could send someone in an emergency 1300' in one way when Olsen is only 200' from that jump. Cookies, clothespins, or REMs are a better solution.

 

[rddvet]

I only use REMs. I was trained with cookies and arrows but soon realized that there should be something better. I was introduced to REMs on my first trip to Mexico and have used them ever since. I really see no need to drop a marker that is not directional but fully understand how that can cause confusion in many instances. My REM acts like a cookie to everyone else but acts like a cookie AND an arrow to me. Oh yeah, team markers seem like a really bad idea to me.

Im the same. Learned with cookies and arrows. Only keep a couple arrows for specific emergencies. I find rems easier to handle and they can be both directional or nondirectional to me. Alot of people feel that can lead to confusiuon, but I've been using them for over 12 years now and they have never created a concern.
I went to mexico and met bil philips at a site and he taught me all about how he viewed rems to be used and it made sense.

How are other people's markers confusing?

Shouldn't. Other people's markers should always basically be cave trash to anyone who didn't place it or isn't part of the team. But my buddy's marker tells me they're still in the cave if we get separated. That would be the one time someone else's marker means anything to me.
I thought every instructor made it very clear that other people's markers mean nothing to you, but maybe I'm wrong.