Cookie vs REM vs TEM

[rjack321]

Cookies are generally fine in 95% of diving

When you have super confusing sections of a cave with multiple jumps on a short section of mainline, or a T which is really a hub with spokes, and all kinds of other confusing line management. Or lots of reversing arrows going in-out-in-out. Or lines you have to pull in terrible vis (cause the cave is just plain small and silty AF there), then REMs tend to work a tiny bit better. Better still is knowing the cave and not being a line diver.

As a bonus REMs have more space for saucy comments to other divers

 

[inquis]

Other people I know have been taught to always tie off into their REM and not drop any other personal markers (team members would drop one next to the REM) - so in this respect it REMs are part of a bigger training style.

This has the drawback of no exit indication for the lead diver in the case of separation. I guess they could move the line off their REM, but would that be confusing to the rest of the team? That could also allow a slack line/entanglement hazard in some cases if the end could then slide. Same issue when using cookies.

Honestly, I view REMs & cookies as pretty equivalent, especially with a team that will catch you if you lay it on the wrong side of a T. As a practical matter, I just find REMs easier to hold and quicker to attach/remove.

 

[rjack321]

This has the drawback of no exit indication for the lead diver in the case of separation. I guess they could move the line off their REM, but would that be confusing to the rest of the team? That could also allow a slack line/entanglement hazard in some cases if the end could then slide. Same issue when using cookies.

Having the line tied into the REM just makes it an arrow - although I don't know anyone doing this.

Honestly, I view REMs & cookies as pretty equivalent, especially with a team that will catch you if you lay it on the wrong side of a T. As a practical matter, I just find REMs easier to hold and quicker to attach/remove.

Same, I was taught cookies pre-REM. I have noticed that people taught with REMs can sometimes struggle with switching to cookie marking. Especially once the jump is pulled, if it was an unmarked jump the only directionality remaining is the teammate.

 

[Norwegian Cave Diver]

The question becomes…
Do you place a team marker
Or
Place individual markers.

 

[rjack321]

Quoted from Danny Riordan's FB:

A few years ago I was told about a variation of the use of the REM. This concept is the Team Exit Marker or TEM. I was told that this concept works the same way as the use of a REM, with the variable that only one marker is used per team, instead of 1 marker per diver.

This sounds like rationalizing team line markers because you're using REMs. There have been numerous fatalities when multiple people share cookies or arrows at navigation points like jumps as well as at the infamous snap & gap in Cenote Kalimba. It's a really bad idea.

 

[rjack321]

The question becomes…
Do you place a team marker
Or
Place individual markers.

Please, for the love of God, place individual markers. "Team" markers are a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[Norwegian Cave Diver]

Please, for the love of God, place individual markers. "Team" markers are a disaster


waiting to happen.

Great answer!!

 

[chthonicly]

I’m a muppet, not a super human infallible cave diver who never makes mistakes. So of course I placed a cookie on the wrong side of a T once. My teammate noticed and I noticed about a second later. It’s obvious.

Being a muppet, I can imagine myself placing a REM on the correct side of a T but pointing in the wrong direction. That is confusing and more difficult to spot. Would you trust the position relative to a T or the direction? What if you are stressed?

Just as your teammate noticed the cookie mistake, a teammate who is trained in REMs would very much notice this mistake. It's funny, but the T situation is actually where I really prefer REMs since I feel like you add a double check on nav by putting a personal directional marker there.

Another thing I like about REMs is that they can never be confused for system markers. I've seen abandoned personal arrows and very much dislike it. I feel like this violates the "do not confuse other teams" best practice. If someone abandons a REM it's obvious it's not a system marker.

I use both, and I've been trained in both, but I prefer REMs -- they feel cleaner and simpler to me, but I get it's a personal preference. If a teammate doesn't use them, I do have some cookies and arrows to use as well.

 

[Dsix36]

I only use REMs. I was trained with cookies and arrows but soon realized that there should be something better. I was introduced to REMs on my first trip to Mexico and have used them ever since. I really see no need to drop a marker that is not directional but fully understand how that can cause confusion in many instances. My REM acts like a cookie to everyone else but acts like a cookie AND an arrow to me. Oh yeah, team markers seem like a really bad idea to me.

 

[halocline]

I use REMs and cookies, but my REMs have been modified to make the directionality more obvious. Plus they have the advantage of being obviously different from system arrows and very easily identifiable by touch. Most important, the lines are Spurs colors.