What do you do when donating to a panicked diver who initiates a buoyant ascent?

[steinbil]

CMDR,
I am not a fan of longer hoses (except in cave diving mode for secondary) 'cause the long loop of the hose is a potential snag source.

and, for me, as an extreme current diver, one of my prime concerns is snagging.

I whole heatedly agree that many basic skills are lost post training.

Here is a rather interesting story about air sharing that was told to me:

Couple Communication

The way most long hoses are routed/stowed, it's much more streamlined and less of a snag risk than a typical short hose...

 

[Belzelbub]

How ridiculous that is. All divers have another second stage. If someone takes mine, I grab another. It is just not that big of a deal and telling people otherwise only makes the whole thing much worse than it needs to be. I tell buddies that if they need air just take the reg from my mouth.

It will depend on the situation. If prepared for it, it should be a non-event. If not prepared, it can be frightening. Couple that with someone that has only learned secondary donate, a diver grabbing their primary unexpectedly can put the donor in an uncomfortable situation that may not be handled correctly.

During my class, my buddy had to donate to the ”victim”. He did that fine, but one time, got tangled up a bit with his secondary. A lot can happen in the moment. If the OOA diver is calm, that makes things a lot easier, when panicked, the rescuer needs to first make sure they don’t become a victim themselves.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

It may be ridiculous, but a panicked human being is not rationale and surface logic is simply inadequate to describe human behavior underwater under perceived life-threat stress.

So, prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

If you can find them, here are some references (not complete or definitive ... just stuff in my personal library) that might prove useful:

-----, STUDIES ON HUMAN PERFORMANCE IN THE SEA, Hawaii Sea Grant, Sept. !975, 350 pages.

Adolfson, J. and Berhage, T. PERCEPTION AND PERFORMANCE UNDERWATER, John Wiley & Sons, New York, NY. 1974, 359 pages.

Athletic Institute, HUMAN PERFORMANCE AND SCUBA DIVING, Athletic Institute, Chicago, IL. 1970, 170 pages.

Bachrach, A. & Engstrom, G. STRESS AND PERFORMANCE IN DIVING, Best Publishing, San Pedro, CA. 1987, 183 pages.

Nevo,B. & Breitstein, S. PSYCHOLOGICAL AND BEHAVIORAL ASPECTS OF DIVING, Best, Flagstaff, AZ. 1999, 1992 pages.

The last two references are considered by many to be the classic works.

Thanks! I'm always looking to add to my dive library. Just ordered the last two per your recommendation.

 

[Altamira]

After reading this thread, I am glad I did not elect to use a much longer primary donate hose because I can see major problems if a diver grabs a regulator on 6-7' hose and then rockets to the surface. Never having done it, I'm not certain I could control a diver that could get that far away from me in a matter of seconds. Based on a lot of past SB threads and posts, I use a primary donate with a 40" hose so I hopefully will not have to deal with a possibly panicked diver using my octo on a 29" hose, perhaps interfering with things I might want/need to do to resolve the problem. Although unconventional, I now put both regulators on rubber necklaces so I have immediate access to either regulator if needed. This thread has been a wealth of information.

 

[johndiver999]

Why put a primary regulator on a necklace?

 

[Bowcaps]

An instructor would punch the student in the stomach as hard as they could if they didn't completely empty every bit of gas from their lungs.

Yes that's very believable

Don’t get me wrong, this wasn’t ‘as hard as they could’ more like a jab to get the air flowing out, but it definitely got the point across.

 

[johndiver999]

It will depend on the situation. If prepared for it, it should be a non-event. If not prepared, it can be frightening. Couple that with someone that has only learned secondary donate, a diver grabbing their primary unexpectedly can put the donor in an uncomfortable situation that may not be handled correctly.

During my class, my buddy had to donate to the ”victim”. He did that fine, but one time, got tangled up a bit with his secondary. A lot can happen in the moment. If the OOA diver is calm, that makes things a lot easier, when panicked, the rescuer needs to first make sure they don’t become a victim themselves.

Of course it can be dangerous for someone who is not a decent diver, but "the geek" seems to be telling people to prepare for a life threatening event associated with someone taking a regulator. I do not agree with this line of thinking at all.

To reiterate, it would be very smart for a diver to PREPARE for loosing the regulator and develop an automatic, reflexive response to reach for it if it were snagged on something, or recover the secondary should the primary be unavailable FOR ANY REASON. This should not be considered life threatening. I don't care if the diver was trained for secondary donate, or not - should the reg be snatched it should be a non-event.

I think it is not much different than telling a diver to "prepare to die" should the power inflator on the BC fail at 100 feet. I would never teach someone that this is some kind of dramatic event. Of course is COULD kill you, but not such a big deal if you have thought it through, practiced and you have no other compounding issues.

 

[BoltSnap]

"the geek"

Hahahahahahahahahaha

 

[CT-Rich]

A panicked diver only needs to think they don’t have air, a ripped mouth piece breathing wet might be enough. On my last trip a newbie ended up sharing air with her instructor. Her tank valve was’t all the way open and at 60’ it shut down. I bet the BCD could still inflate. They could grab the elevator and head up. A neutral diver kicking hard is going to be a rocket ship eventually as his suit and BCD expand. He could also decide to dump lead in his panic.

I’m not a lawyer, but I have a vivid imagination. Once topside you are going to have to answer for the choices you make. If you yank your regulator out of his mouth and they drown or have an embolism, a lawyer in nice suit in a warm and dry court room is going to ask you how likely it was that you were going to die going faster than the recommended rate. You are also going to get to look at the family of your former buddy as they pull up the data from everyone’s dive computer’s ascent rates.

I am yet to see a hose get pulled hard enough to yank it out of a first stage.

On my last dive trip they asked if everyone had a buddy. I said “no” but I would be a good boy and stay with the group. Wasn’t a problem.

 

[Altamira]

Why put a primary regulator on a necklace?

@johndiver999. A couple of reasons. First, because I use both primary and octo during a dive to insure both work as advertised. I found when I did not use a necklace for both, it became a pain in the butt to clip off/stow the primary in a way that was easy to reach/access for me or a dive needing buddy. Also, with two shoulder replacements, my arm mobility is not ideal, and I want both regulators where I can easily reach them with either arm. I do not want to depend on sweeping my right arm to recapture a regulator that may have gotten away from me. Being old sometime requires doing normal things differently.