Extremely BAD News: Dutch Springs likely closing permanently ...

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It was clear from last night's presentation that, under the current plan, divers must be under the direct supervision of an insured pro. Bad news for certified divers looking to work on skills, shake down gear, or just get the rust off.
I'm actually not 100% sure about that (unless Jim shows up here and clarifies).

I did hear him mention the possibility of "surface supervision" which is what Dutch has now. So maybe he was stressing the idea of in-water supervision by dive pros to make it more palatable to the board in hopes of getting the variance, but not being constrained to that in the future if he can secure the appropriate insurance coverage.

If in-water supervision is required, I'm personally not interested in diving in whatever Dutch Springs becomes.
 
121 parking spaces? That’s a lot of schoolbuses. Can’t see how else this works.
 
I'm actually not 100% sure about that (unless Jim shows up here and clarifies).

I did hear him mention the possibility of "surface supervision" which is what Dutch has now. So maybe he was stressing the idea of in-water supervision by dive pros to make it more palatable to the board in hopes of getting the variance, but not being constrained to that in the future if he can secure the appropriate insurance coverage.

If in-water supervision is required, I'm personally not interested in diving in whatever Dutch Springs becomes.
My take was that surface supervision, at least provided as a facility amenity, was a "maybe, someday" with no imminent roadmap. He was clear that the initial plan required every diver to have a responsible insured pro covering them.

Surface supervision is probably somewhat of a grey-scale under typical "pro" insurance. (DMs/Instructors - please chime in) I've certainly done elements of post-certification classes that were de-facto "not directly supervisable" given Dutch vis (arguably, solo) such as NAV and S&R. How that interacts with "standards" would play out if there was an adverse event is a good question.

How much would be enforced, and how much is "fig leaf" is unknown. There are lots of "don't ask, don't tell" situations in the world given the legal environment. Personally, I am much happier with putting on my big-person pants and accepting responsibility for the risk-decisions that I make instead of having nanny-rules that typically don't do a thing to enhance safety.
 
My take was that surface supervision, at least provided as a facility amenity, was a "maybe, someday" with no imminent roadmap. He was clear that the initial plan required every diver to have a responsible insured pro covering them.
Right, that's the point. It's wiggle room. Dutch isn't operating under any such policy at present, and what it will open as in the future as Dutch 2.0 is not known, at least not by us.

So if it turns out that it's not possible to make money, or at least to stay solvent, relying on only revenue from classes of students who don't just opt to do their OW by referral in the Caribbean, then they will either have to address this (reverting to the traditional Dutch operating/insurance plans) or close.
 
I read something that said TC potentially had a private operator, which again goes to viability. If the site is to be reduced significantly, less users means less income which means higher costs. The prior owner had years (?) of operations to settle debt, but a new entity needs to take on debt to "open". Is it still economically viable?

It could be a matter time, when the other area has been developed, over a few years, the quarry will be less used, and have less advocates, when the argument to close comes up next.
 
It could be a matter time, when the other area has been developed, over a few years, the quarry will be less used, and have less advocates, when the argument to close comes up next.

Right, that's a real good point. Less advocates. No one is going to be passionate about a training site primarily used by dive shops. Here's what I wrote on our dive club mail list:

I do understand why Jim (Atlantis Aquatics) did this, his primary concern is (and should be) his business, and possibly that of other dive shops who do training in the northeast. He may not have had any financially reasonable way of continuing with the sort of insurance coverage that Dutch Springs had to allow for public diving, I don’t know. I also am not 100% sure if this is a done deal, since at one point he mentioned something about “lake staff” supervision. It is possible that he described the plan as “supervised diving” to make the board more likely to grant the variances, but deliberately left open the possibility of surface supervision (like Dutch Springs has always had) to satisfy his insurance underwriters or something. If that’s the case, then great, I’m still interested in diving at Dutch.

If not, I really have no interest in diving at Dutch Springs any more.

Dutch was a magical place not because of the water or the attractions or the facilities. It was magical because of the community. The idea that you could just randomly drive there (often on a blowout day) and spend the day running into old friends and finding new ones. The big barbecues and the camping. You could dive at your own pace - leisurely have lunch, work on gear, see what other people were doing, kibbitz and learn. It was like a local pub.

We ask a lot of our club volunteers who work so hard to make local diving events fun and safe for everybody. But if it was up to me (it no longer is), I would absolutely NOT ask a pro (DM or Instructor) to take on the professional responsibility and potential serious liability of supervising anyone. If they are WORKING as pros, doing a class, and getting paid for it - fine, that’s why they became pros. But it’s not fair to ask them to just do this on an ongoing basis so that non-pros can dive at whatever is left at Dutch Springs, especially since the pros have the right to fun diving as well. With the old Dutch Springs, they had that. They wouldn’t if Jim insists on in-water supervision, which presumably would have to comply with training standards (i.e. pro to student ratios). It’s not like you could show up with one DM and 20 non-pros and have that one person’s insurance cover everyone. I certainly wouldn’t agree to that if I was a DM.

I wish Jim well - there needs to be a place for people to do the open water portion of training, we don’t want to rely solely on air travel for that. But that has nothing to do with the local diving community.

I am excited about the possibility of Verplank, and now that there may be a lot of interest and financial support from many of us, maybe that will happen faster. Probably not by the upcoming season, but maybe 2023.

I’m also hopeful that this may be a shot in the arm to local ocean diving - we have been losing boats over the years, and maybe this will encourage more people to consider getting into the charter business. I’m also looking forward to showing people our excellent shore diving. I know that it’s not a replacement for Dutch, given the depth and the tidal concerns, but it’s free and there is an incredible thriving marine ecosystem in shallow water within a short drive from NYC, with great beaches and food to pass the time between high slack tides.

Happy New Year, everybody…!
 
No one is going to be passionate about a training site primarily used by dive shops.
This is my disconnect. All I want is a nice quiet place to solo dive where I won't be hassled. I'll sign anything as far as liability releases, but lawyers have shut everything down, Willow too. Dutch is a nice place, but not for solo divers.

-see you in the tidal back bays...
 
This is my disconnect. All I want is a nice quiet place to solo dive where I won't be hassled. I'll sign anything as far as liability releases, but lawyers have shut everything down, Willow too. Dutch is a nice place, but not for solo divers.

-see you in the tidal back bays...

Yeah... but not sure it's impossible. After all, Dutch ran for 40 years, allowing solo diving (with card and transponder). So it's certainly doable. And I would be fine if they required a buddy, it's not like it's solo or nothing for me. I only ever did OC solo diving there, anywaty.

But I'm not going to start hiring DMs or pressuring friends to supervise me.
 
Any word on the camping?
 

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