Recreational Pony Bottles, completely unnecessary? Why or why not?

[Celt]

My pony is for me, period. But I am not going to ignore any diver in distress, as even though I dive "solo" in the group dives; I find I am quite aware of other divers, especially those that may have strayed a bit from their buddy, and are not quite as experienced.

I don’t have a problem with people carrying a pony, but its for their own benefit not a buddy. I’m not buying the Mother Theresa bit like it’s for someone else.

 

[scubaozy]

With an adolescent or younger buddy: A decent pony lets me handle any gas emergency without stressing them or relying on their reaction under that pressure. Necessary? No. I could put them through all that, and likely get gas from them if needed, without them doing any kind of good job in the process. But a pony would be a much better plan. Instead of "make sure you save your uncle on the dive today".

I understand your paternal feelings about this but I certified many junior*divers and actually same training as adults applies to them.

With divers I know and trust as very solid: No not necessary. Though it adds an extra layer of ease when we're both redundant.

With unknown divers: Mmm. Well, which of the above two cases are they closer too? Can I know that before getting on the boat or in the water with them? Will I even know after a dive when things seemed to all go well, as they seem fine but are actually totally useless if something happens? A pony is not required... as I could still likely get air from them even if they are useless, but it would give me more peace of mind that I'm not rolling the dice on their reactions.

Trust is a cultural thing. I lived long years in Finland and Denmark, where trust to other individuals are highest compare to the other countries, and these countries often rate as happiest, safest and most competitive in the world.
No matter how safe driver you are, you are endangered by other drivers, very hard to control this, either you must accept this risk or not leave home. If you feel insecure diving with unknown people, sure, you should not be diving with them, that is most effective remedy to that.
There is perhaps 1 fatality in 100 000 dives. This includes, everyone, if you are in the median, you and your buddy are average divers, that is the risk you are taking. I would say you should not base your dive plan on catastrophic failure scenarios. If you do not trust your buddy, mitigation is to talk with him before the dive and not dive if you are not comfortable.

Having a decent pony simplifies my pre-dive pairing up process and the dive itself to "am I comfortable helping you at need" instead of "am I comfortable relying on you at need for gas right now". A modest cylinder at my side is a small price to pay for that simplification and reduced worry before and during the dive.

Any extra equipment you carry will make you less streamlined, your air consumption will increase, you will build-up more co2, you will breath heavier thus more likely to get a free flow at depth. You are adding more unknowns to the equation. Potentially it could be you that will become liability.

I think a better question is:
If every rec diver was a much better diver, would that affect fatality or general safety stats and in what way?

Everyone being much better divers would clearly make a difference. Yet I can't make all divers better. I can hedge my risk when I'm not sure how good the diver I'm with is, and I can handle the minimal pony complexity as I am a better diver.

I am sure everyone in this forum will have a differing answer on what is better diver. Carrying equipment is not necessarily diver skill. Knowing to use the right tool at the right time is. When you carry a pony for every single dive, you have assumed that you could not plan the dive, you could not asses and mitigate your dive buddy's behavior/skill, you could not manage your gas, you could not asses the conditions you are in. How is it that it makes you better diver?

 

[MichaelMc]

No matter how safe driver you are, you are endangered by other drivers, very hard to control this, either you must accept this risk or not leave home. If you feel insecure diving with unknown people, sure, you should not be diving with them, that is most effective remedy to that.

No. It is not hard to control whether I am endangered by their reaction if I need gas. Carry a pony, after gaining the comfort in the water to make that easy. No need to stay home for safety.

Any extra equipment ... less streamlined, ... build-up more co2, you will breath heavier thus more likely to get a free flow at depth. You are adding more unknowns to the equation. Potentially it could be you that will become liability.

The drag of a pony sidemounted under my armpit, in my slipstream, causing me to over breath my reg, causing a CO2 hit and thus making me the liability is over blown. Also, if the water is such my regs could freeze, I should have better gear and redundancy anyway.

Carrying equipment is not necessarily diver skill.

By better divers, I did not mean to include 'better' by the act of carrying a pony. As whether ponies are useful is the debate at hand. I meant in their skills and their calm and deliberate reaction to small incidents in the water. Diving would be safer if all divers were much better in that way.

I am better in that sense. All divers I am with are not. And they may not be able to provide me with effective assistance. So I ensure I'm fairly self-reliant.

Yes, if we are in 10' on a clear calm beach, I will have assessed the dive conditions and I'll leave the pony ashore. I'm just trying to keep the discussion a bit simpler. The beach is not the large variable of interest here. My unknown dive buddy is.

Ensuring self-reliance does not imply lack of dive planing. Arguing that it does is bizarre.

 

[Blackcrusader]

I would say you should not base your dive plan on catastrophic failure scenarios. If you do not trust your buddy, mitigation is to talk with him before the dive and not dive if you are not comfortable.

If I based my dive plans on having a catastrophic failure every dive I would stop diving. Being prepared or understanding what to do and how to remain calm is another thing. I dive with lots of people who I meet on dive vacations. We chat about the dive and being in contact with each other during the dive. As I dive in a few places regularly I know the dive sites so ask buddies what they are interested in seeing. Many don't have cameras so I will take a few shots of them on dives and email them photos or video.

Many divers after the first dive with me are wow you are so much better on air then I am can we stay together for the rest of the dives. I'm fine with that. They tend to relax diving with someone who has better gas consumption. As they buddy with me they find I don't race along I go pretty slowly and we see a lot of things other people miss in their rush to get from a to b. I do not rely on buddies for help so in that sense I like to be self reliant. I've never thought I should bring along a pony on recreational dives. Again I dive in warm tropical waters where many dives do not exceed 30m depth. I also do not think of myself as being " a better diver " than my dive buddies just one with more experience in many cases. Several divers I have met over the years we now do dive vacations together.

Trust in buddies is fine, trust in myself is better lol.

 

[Kevin Blaylock]

I personally do not dive with a pony (yet) but i know one of my buddies had to do a esa from 90 ft because his tank valve was pushed into a wreck because of incoming surge. This caused the o ring on his yoke regulator to to blow. This of course caused a free flow and rapid loss of air. A pony bottle would have come in really handy.

 

[tursiops]

I personally do not dive with a pony (yet) but i know one of my buddies had to do a esa from 90 ft because his tank valve was pushed into a wreck because of incoming surge. This caused the o ring on his yoke regulator to to blow. This of course caused a free flow and rapid loss of air. A pony bottle would have come in really handy.

Surge strong enough to do this at 90 ft? Where was this?

Added: rereading this, I'm not sure what is meant by "incoming surge." "Surge" is usually used by divers to mean the back-and-forth motion caused by surface wave orbital velocities near the bottom, but "surge" is also used for things like a tidal bore caused by a tide over a step-change in bottom depth. The former would usually be negligible in 90 ft, but the latter could be significant, although it is a fairly rare phenomenon. If however "surge" is being used just to mean (inclorrectly) the current from the Gulf Stream, for example, as you might find in the Mid-Florida east coast area, then it can be quite large but is not "surge," it is just current.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I personally do not dive with a pony (yet) but i know one of my buddies had to do a esa from 90 ft because his tank valve was pushed into a wreck because of incoming surge. This caused the o ring on his yoke regulator to to blow. This of course caused a free flow and rapid loss of air. A pony bottle would have come in really handy.

Was this in Florida? While I have not dived any wrecks there, I have heard of some rather wicked currents, so I can envision this. I can't see this happening in the artificial reefs in BC where I had done my recreational wreck course many moons ago.

 

[Kevin Blaylock]

This was in north carolina. Im not sure about the surge, it may have been current, but i do know he "wanged" his valve and was loosing air fast.

 

[Wibble]

Yoke valves. Enough said.


Perfect reason for taking a Pony.

 

[scubaozy]

I personally do not dive with a pony (yet) but i know one of my buddies had to do a esa from 90 ft because his tank valve was pushed into a wreck because of incoming surge. This caused the o ring on his yoke regulator to to blow. This of course caused a free flow and rapid loss of air. A pony bottle would have come in really handy.

I think what is more handy is a din conversion kit to his regulator.