Recreational Pony Bottles, completely unnecessary? Why or why not?

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Largely depends upon conditions and personal attitude to diving.

Most of my diving's done in mediocre visibility and poor light. Frequently this can be down to less than 1m/3'. Buddies are hard to keep that close. Thus should crap happen, it's down to me to resolve it. Thus it's a habit of always having redundancy, be that a spare mask, spare SMB or gas (twinsets or sidemount).

If you're diving in great visibility this probably isn't such an issue and if you're comfortable to rely on your buddy, that's cool.
Then you are diving outside the parameters of recreational (buddy) diving if conditions are such that a buddy team CANNOT be kept intact. In such case you should equip and plan for a solo dive and all divers should be equipped and trained as such. Again, accidental separation of a buddy team is not a solo dive and continuance of such a dive once a separation occurs is an incorrect buddy procedure wherein the buddies are supposed to make a quick look about for the lost buddy and then surface.

James
 
Then you are diving outside the parameters of recreational (buddy) diving if conditions are such that a buddy team CANNOT be kept intact. In such case you should equip and plan for a solo dive and all divers should be equipped and trained as such. Again, accidental separation of a buddy team is not a solo dive and continuance of such a dive once a separation occurs is an incorrect buddy procedure wherein the buddies are supposed to make a quick look about for the lost buddy and then surface.

James
Agreed.

However, the buddy myth continues.
 
There is more fatality among solo divers. Solo diving or self reliant diving does not make you safer. You accept more risks in fact.

This was back when DAN classified separated buddies as solo divers. Since being shown, by their own data, that actually solo divers were statistically safer, they have changed the way they present their report.
 
There is absolutely no evidence or data that diving with a pony will make you safer.
Nor is there any evidence that diving with a pony bottle doesn't make you safer.
There is more fatality among solo divers.
What's your evidence of this? If there is real evidence, how many of the solo divers were wearing pony bottles or had redundancy?
There is more fatality among tech divers.
Compared to what, rec divers? Ok, maybe, but how many of them die because they run out of gas? It does happen, but there are also fatalities related to other things that make this comparison moot.

Tech divers work as team btw, just like rec diving teams. You also accept more risk.
This is not true. Many tech divers dive solo, and even if they are team diving, they are ideally self-sufficient. If a CCR diver has a problem with the rebreather. What do they do? Bailout to open circuit, i.e. a pony bottle. . .
Carryover the practices from other types of diving that are solving very different risks/probabilities is not making rec diving safer or in anyway better.
Let me be momentarily pedantic - one does not solve risk. A risk is something like an earthquake or a tornado. They exist and you can't make them go away. You can however mitigate risk. Your mitigations may solve specific problems. For example, if I shore up the supports of the building, it should not collapse under the strain of a 6.5 earthquake. That is risk mitigation.

Risk mitigation reduces the likelihood of a certain problem resulting in a catastrophic outcome. Simply, risk is a problem I cannot solve, and risk mitigation is the solution to the chance of that risk rearing it's ugly and uncontrolled head.

Let's go back to scuba and do an ad-hoc risk analysis. What are the things that can kill me diving? I can have a heart attack or another physiological problem unrelated to my diving. I can be lost/left behind at the surface. I can have a injury related to ascent - DCS, AGE etc. I can have an animal encounter and be stung/bitten/etc. that results in my death. I can run out of air, possibly due to error or because I become lost or trapped underwater. There's probably others, but let's look at these problems.

1. Heart attack etc - I can go to the doctor, exercise, not smoke etc. I can't mitigate my biological risk underwater, though I would argue that having a buddy present were something catastrophic to occur, would help mitigate the chances of death

2. Getting lost or left - I can carry signaling devices, and EPRIB, or a PLB. I can make sure that there's a roster of divers when I get in the water and I'm diving with a reputable operation.

2. .Animal attack: In every open water class I've reviewed, there's a portion that says, don't touch the animals and most scuba diver injuries are the result of defensive action by the animal. Education of divers to avoid situations is teaching them to mitigate their own risks. There may be other specific things that divers have learned locally or anecdotally that work as well. Not wearing shiny things to avoid attracting barracuda for example. Both of these mitigate the risk of having a negative encounter with an animal that results in death or injury.


4. Running out of gas and ascents related to ascent - I can try ensure my buddy and I stay within a second or so of each other. I can check my SPG. I can have a rock bottom gas plan. Assuming my buddy is close and can adequately assist me, this does mitigate risk, but I cannot ensure that my buddy will not become lost while I'm not looking thus that is not a bulletproof mitigation.

The 2019 DAN Annual Diving Report lists 124 Recreational, 12 Tech and 57 Breath-hold divers that died.

"At least two dives were intended as solo dives. For most dives, the buddy status at the beginning was not known. Of those who started with a buddy, six ended up separated, but there is no evidence that it was intentional. In some cases, the disappearance of the victim was not noticed immediately, and in other victims left the group and did a rapid ascent to the surface."

Scuba diving is like flying in that it isn't one mistake or problem that kills you, it's two problems.

In scuba diving, if my buddy is my air source, and (1) we become inadvertently separated - no big deal, I find my buddy.

If I have a (2) catastrophic gas failure, I can use my buddy's octo and head for the surface.

Combine them however, and I have a major problem that may result in DCS, an AGE or both as well as drowning. Adding a pony bottle mitigates the risk here because it eliminates one problem, and makes my problem manageable.

I think most DIR training also subscribes to the philosophy of being able to solve two problems at the same time, but even if that's not the case, consider the following (very unlikely, admittedly) problem:

Three DIR divers are swimming along at 90 feet doing a rec dive on AL80's. Their trim and buoyancy are perfect. They have a rock bottom gas plan. Suddenly one diver runs out of gas. Buddy 1 donates to Buddy 2 and then Buddy 3 runs out of gas. Without a redundant air source, someone has a serious problem that could result in death of injury to the whole team. If 3 has a pony bottle, everyone happily ascends to their safety stop and has a great story.

The simplest answer is that redundancy is an effective mitigation strategy. We don't need a study to tell us that. That's the purpose of logic.
 
Any danger of getting entangled. Which would be any site you don’t know. Yesterday I was searching a site with a metal detector in only 30 feet and after getting a signal under a large boulders I dug in to arms length but had to leave it as I was solo and without a buddy or standby it was to dodgy to continue. It would be crazy to drop into any unknown wreck in any kind of poor vis on your own or without a standby. This idea that because you’re within rec depth your safe is madness. Last week clearing a large tree from a mooring in 15 feet a branch which I was 100% certain I had cut but had missed in the dirt treaded itself straight down between my first stage and my back when I went underneath to get a cable to the tree. I had to take my gear off to get out in complete black. You’re not safer on your own you have to be a lot more careful.

Everything you mention here isn't recreational diving we are discussing. This is more "commercial" diving and the rules and protocols are different.
 
I would be surprised if that were actually true. Do you have the statistics to back that up? A solo dive is not a buddy team that is accidentally split and they are now by themselves nor is it when a dive planned as a buddy dive and by some decision process becomes a solo dive impromptu with neither buddy trained for or equipped for a solo dive. Those instead are buddy dives gone wrong. If such dives (with accidents resulting) are included in the stats it alters the data.

A solo dive is a planned dive as solo and the diver is equipped both in training and equipment for the dive. It is not a buddy dive gone wrong. I doubt in any way it can be supported that planned solo dives are more dangerous than a buddy dive, especially given the sorts of buddies you guys talk about in this thread.

James
I am just looking at bsac reports.
2015 1 solo out of 9 fatalities
2016 1 solo diver out of 11 fatalities
2017 2 solo diver out of 10 total fatalities
 

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That data is useless because it does not specify that the solo divers were actually trained and equipped as such and another indicates that the solo dive commenced as a buddy dive with seperation resulting in a continued solo dive. The usual garbage in and garbage out.

N
 
Nor is there any evidence that diving with a pony bottle doesn't make you safer.
I shared earlier examples from bsac incident report.
What's your evidence of this? If there is real evidence, how many of the solo divers were wearing pony bottles or had redundancy?
Sample is all divers, given small amount of solo divers, they should not be presented at all, I would expect 0 incident per year, yet this is not the case.
Compared to what, rec divers? Ok, maybe, but how many of them die because they run out of gas? It does happen, but there are also fatalities related to other things that make this comparison moot.
I am not sure what has changed since but I will quote DSAT tecrec material:
"In Technical diving even if you do everything right, there is still a higher inherent potential for an accident leading to permanent injury and death."
I actually did not compare, they are independent statements.

This is not true. Many tech divers dive solo, and even if they are team diving, they are ideally self-sufficient. If a CCR diver has a problem with the rebreather. What do they do? Bailout to open circuit, i.e. a pony bottle. . .
Again I will refer to dsat, you can take it with them if you know better.
"The Team concept
Technical divers work as a team. Integrate member's needs and efforts during predive checks. Meet equipment requirements Plan execute the dive and and other details.
Team diving treats the dive as a mission with a specific purpose
......
"
 
That data is useless because it does not specify that the solo divers were actually trained and equipped as such and another indicates that the solo dive commenced as a buddy dive with seperation resulting in a continued solo dive. The usual garbage in and garbage out.

N
Take it with bsac, I am sharing what I read, I rather trust them than someone random in the net.
 
This is why defining terms is important in debate and discussion. Otherwise, it's just a fight.

Returning to the point of "new divers"; new divers learn in many different environments, some that require more complex planning and gear than others. New divers can and do learn to dive with drysuits, and I'm relatively certain, redundant air necessitated by the environment in which they are learning / diving. Some new divers learn to tow a flag - something I was never taught to do and have never done.

I didn't learn to carry redundant gas when I first started diving, but had it been part of the class, I'd have no problems doing it.
 

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