Neutrally Buoyant vs Kneeling - What is Better whilst teaching Scuba Diving skills?

[boulderjohn]

People practice as they are trained, while it is common to say that practice makes perfect and the full skill will develop over time, all practice does is make permanent.

Absolutely.
I am certified to coach two sports (soccer and volleyball) at a very high level (although I have not played either in decades). The training for both certifications by both agencies (USSA and USVBA) was pretty intense and very much in keeping with what I had learned as a professional educator. Both agencies stressed that instruction must be "gamelike." If you have students learn skills in ways that do not match the way they are properly performed in a game, they will do it in the game the way they did it in practice rather than the way they should in a game. Those skills will be very hard to correct.

Here is an example from soccer.

Typical American parents acting as soccer coaches have students spend a lot of time in practice practicing passing by getting with a partner and kicking the ball back and forth to each other. By doing so, the learn to watch the ball carefully as it comes to them, wait patiently for it to arrive, stop the ball dead at their feet, and kick it back in the reverse of the direction it came.

In a game, a skilled player receiving a pass moves to the ball to beat the opponent to it, looks around while the ball is coming to see what the situation is, and either taps the ball to a space away from an opponent or makes an immediate pass to a teammate, with all of those actions progressing in a different direction from which the pass was received.

A game of keep away does a much better job of teaching passing skills because it is gamelike.

 

[TMHeimer]

I usually seem to take on the aura of being in favour of kneeling. Not really true. No one has addressed my point about how easy developing good buoyancy is even after kneeling training.
Again, assuming regular diving shortly after certification, kneeling or otherwise. Lots of neutral time in the class gives you a very nice head start.
I will grant that people tend to repeat things the way they've been initially taught. But, it's not like the example Rickk gave about rifle cleaning. From what I've seen "mastery" of a skill in the PADI OW course means basically doing it once correctly. Maybe twice, or then go to the DM for extra help, then do it again once correctly for the instructor to check the box. So I doubt it's very ingrained. That's the logistics with classes of say 6-10 and limited pool hours. I vaguely recall in OW course I did most of the skills quite well the first try, but even though I took the "non-weekend" course (same hours over 3 weeks), it did seem like a bit of a jumble with all those skills. Nothing was really ingrained without further study and practice after OW course.
I do agree that it's probably best to teach it exactly the way one will do it in real life.
I was taught the first method of retrieving the reg was the reach. I demonstrated that to a class (on knees, of course). When we had free swim around time I demonstrated it to several students while swimming and signaled "your turn". Neither of us headed for the bottom. I know I didn't even give doing that a thought.
The OOA drill, according to several instructors I assisted, means that someone comes up to you in a panic and grabs the first second stage he sees--probably the one in your mouth. At least that's what they told the classes. It's good to practice that one either neutral or kneeling (or standing) as you at least know the proper steps--if it ever happens that way.
Re the soccer analogy-- I was a basketballer in my young days and coached one year. Yes, my jump shot is still the same today at age 66. I practiced that endlessly in those years. Not one or two times.
Doesn't mean I support someone showing kids an impractical way to shoot.
But if you go to kneel to clear your mask on thousands of dives because that's the way you did it once or twice-- and don't realize this is clumsy and time consuming-- something is amiss.

 

[Jack Hammer]

I was practicing on my rebreather and saw a few OW classes being taught last year that had no kneeling and good trim. I was impressed at how much better they looked in the water than I did when I first took up tech. I made a point of complimenting their instructor.

 

[Blackcrusader]

I was practicing on my rebreather and saw a few OW classes being taught last year that had no kneeling and good trim. I was impressed at how much better they looked in the water than I did when I first took up tech. I made a point of complimenting their instructor.

You see lots of funny things being taught nowadays.... not sure if this was part of peak buoyancy....

 

[TMHeimer]

You see lots of funny things being taught nowadays.... not sure if this was part of peak buoyancy....

The flip was interesting. Ever see those aquarium divers with their impressive buoyancy tricks- upside down, etc. (I don't mess with that as it encourages water into my ears)? Not sure what he was gunna do with the fins at the end.

 

[MichaelMc]

What stands out to me about no kneel training is:
- With newly trained divers with minimal recall, it indoctrinates them from the start that being on the bottom is just not part of the picture.
- And does not make them used to resting on the bottom, for any reason.
- It gives them practice to achieve that from the start and all during class, not as some final brief exercise.
- It likely makes them better divers, as many who teach it attest.

Doing some on the knees blows one and two completely!

ETA:
On one of my first group boat dives, divers were told to go to the bottom of the line and wait for the guides. I was the last customer in and had paused to see if the guides, above me, were ok with a diver having ear issues. When I got to the bottom everyone was kneeling on the bottom. All but one in a circle, like 10 people. It blew my mind. It was a 'what are you people doing?' moment.

The lone diver was kneeled on the anchor chain, fiddling with their BC. I thought disturbing them might not go well. So I went to the other side of the circle, hovering flat, and waved the circle to move to me, away from the anchor line. They all got off the bottom, moved over, and re-planted on the bottom. Including the one from on the anchor chain. With me still hovering 5' off the bottom. Then the guides got down and got the show moving.

It was in Hawaii. There was no current nor surge, depth 60-80 feet, 60'+ vis. Three or four years ago.

I'm not sure how the 'let's kneel in a circle' started. But after taking direction, from someone floating, to move, they did that, and replanted. Unlike the person they took direction from. They were most comfortable on the bottom.

 

[Blackcrusader]

What stands out to me about no kneel training is:
- With newly trained divers with minimal recall, it indoctrinates them from the start that off the bottom is the norm.
- And does not make them used to resting on the bottom, for any reason.
- It gives them practice to achieve that from the start and all during class, not as some final brief exercise.
- It likely makes them better divers, as many who teach it attest.

Doing some on the knees blows one and two completely!

Here is a guide I like to dive with. We were on the way to a wreck at 35m when we came across some fish. You can see him do a mask clear in the horizontal trim position. I never noticed it until now as I guess it is just routine for us to clear masks this way.

 

[The Chairman]

I've heard @The Chairman say how he was told that it was impossible to teach the way he taught. Well, it is possible, just not by those naysayers.

I was actually told that I was a liar by one of the people you mentioned in that letter to PADI when I first revealed that I was not allowing my students to kneel a year or two earlier. They wanted to know "HOW" I taught a certain skill and apparently I didn't give them the answer they wanted. I really didn't see a big difference, but they apparently did. However, it was gratifying to see them change their viewpoint over time, but they still feel I'm a liar. Make no doubt about it, most everyone was very skeptical of this method, but the more I adopted it and evolved it, the easier it became for me. You don't have to be a great instructor either. Just decide to do it that way. I start with trim, add neutral buoyancy and when they're fairly comfortable, I start teaching the traditional Scuba skills. It's just not that hard: it's just different.

Now, as much as I believe in this method and won't teach any other way, I don't feel that my way is the only way to teach. I've seen a few instructors start with kneeling and produce good students. However, once they get past the kneeling portion they have to reteach most of the skills while neutral. Breaking that kneeling habit takes a lot of time and not all instructors are successful at it. Kneeling has been taught for years... YEARS. I'm not going to be a part of any instructor shaming crap. I don't think it's right. When I went through my NAUI IDC, I was required to keep my students kneeling. This has been ingrained in many, many instructors as the safe way to dive.

 

[The Chairman]

John, I understand what you're saying and believe you. It is foreign to me why someone would swing their whole body to clear a mask (thousands of dives no less) because they were taught it kneeling.

As a dive guide in the Keys, I saw this happen often, especially if the diver was stressed. I saw them kneel to communicate with one another, to fix or adjust something and more.

I thought I would talk about the other introductory skills,

Since I teach with a long hose, I never had to deal with this much. I teach a third way: pick the hose off the back of your neck. Sure the other two were taught, but this was the method of choice for my students.

 

[TMHeimer]

As a dive guide in the Keys, I saw this happen often, especially if the diver was stressed. I saw them kneel to communicate with one another, to fix or adjust something and more.

Yes, I've been told it does happen a lot and can believe it. I wonder what % of those that do kneel for some reason are "vacation" divers that may be stressed. I don't know if that's relevant, just curious. I have no issue with finding a place to kneel, perhaps even rest on the bottom if it's like, on sand. Maybe that's because there's no coral here to damage. I know you can rest hovering too and do that myself.