Tank failing Visual, shop condemned the tank?

[OkByMe]

I don't know why this is so confusing.

The LDS can't do squat to your cylinder other than decide to put a tumble on it to clarify the inspection. If the inspector determines that the cylinder is a fail on VIS they can mark it any way they want... Crayon, marker, tag on the valve, slap a fail VIS sticker on it... And write up the reason, giving it to you when you pick it up and pay for the inspection, But they can't permanently obliterate the DOT required shoulder markings or damage the cylinder in any way.

On the other-hand, if your cylinder is in a DOT certified Hyro testing facility; They will VIS the cylinder, and if it does pass (in their opinion), go on to test it. At that point if the cylinder fails, they may do a retest just to make sure, but a fail gets your cylinder permanently rendered inoperable. The don't ask, they don't try to justify, they don't make excuses, it is done. They are the fail-safe in the system mandating a specific cylinders testing requirement and have authority to do it. The hyro is done by machine set up with the proper test data for that cylinder and then they push a button and record the readings. No ambiguity, no guess work, no opinions or second guessing.

They will XXX the shoulder markings, and destroy it some way. It it is usually to ream the threads in the neck or put it in a V-vise and drill a large (or more) holes in flank, or do what they did to mine... cut it in half with a power band saw. They said that was the easiest for them on most all cylinder sizes and gives the customer back a couple planters.

The mistake you can make with the LDS is to give them permission to damage the cylinder if it fails the VIS in their opinion and that is all the VIS is, an opinion. If you take your cylinders to an LDS for vis... you make it clear that the cylinder is not to be damaged or altered in any way if the inspector fails it. Make it clear that you want to be in a position to get a second opinion and take it straight to the hydro shop.

Tell them them the LDS failed it on VIS and you want them to VIS and Hydro. Pay the money. If the cylinder does not make their VIS they won't hyro, and you have saved yourself some grief. - but they will not destroy or damage your cylinder, [unless it is aluminum and fails a proper current eddy test for that material] since the hydro fail is the last word. Now that is 2 people who says your "tank sucks", Now you can run around trying to find someone else to resurrect it and spend more money, your call.

If it does make their VIS, but fails the Hydro, you have saved yourself some grief and come away with some big honk'in paperweights. If it does pass their VIS and hydro, make sure you get the testing report, take it back to the LDS and give them some grief. As an aside... I used to have 3 US Divers cylinders (DOT E6498) I bought in the 70's... Eddy tested, hydro'ed and re-certified 3AL. One failed the eddy and the eddy re-test twice in one event and they cut it in half. I have the survivors eddy tested - pay the money, at each hrydro...

 

[lowviz]

Some of the responses in this thread are surprising...

I don’t think it’s ever acceptable to destroy someone’s tanks.

Opinion. Please back it up with something of substance.

I don't know why this is so confusing.

Because it is.

Please quote something legal that puts all this to rest.

The LDS can't do squat to your cylinder other than decide to put a tumble on it to clarify the inspection.

Can you provide a legally valid reference to your assertation or is this just another opinion?

The mistake you can make with the LDS is to give them permission to damage the cylinder if it fails the VIS in their opinion and that is all the VIS is, an opinion.

OK, my opinion is that everything passes. Why did I need a course for that?

 

[halocline]

Divers tend to confuse dive shop inspections with actual DOT mandated testing. The only enforcement of laws governing compressed gas cylinders is done by licensed test facilities, 90% of their business is testing and filling fire extinguishers. They often know very little about scuba tanks. As most divers know, the law requires testing every five years in the U.S.

Dive shops have a legitimate concern about filling other people's cylinders, as a faulty tank is most dangerous to the person filling it. With that in mind, they developed the annual VIS practice for scuba tanks. At this point, since it's a well established industry standard, they could be seen as negligent if they did not adhere to it. That could cost them in the event of an accident. But it's not law, it's just the dive shop protecting itself. (With good reason!)

There is a difference between refusing to fill a tank (or requiring a VIS sticker) and destroying or disfiguring a customer's tank without authorization.

 

[lowviz]

There is a difference between refusing to fill a tank (or requiring a VIS sticker) and destroying or disfiguring a customer's tank without authorization.

I totally get that. But can anybody just state law or precedent one way or the other?

Or is this whole issue just an internal agency vs. agency CF that the dive industry has brought upon itself?

Personally, I really don't care. I solved my own problem by becoming an inspector. Do we all have to do this to get a predictable outcome with respect to having our tanks trashed by the misinformed?

 

[NAM001]

Your neighbor could do that as a joke. Who is to say who wrote what and whether this is any suspicion of or indication of the cylinder being serviceable just because "they" wrote on the outside. That is why there is a lawful regulation on the books with clear and predetermined outcome.

which is true in a perfect world. The problem with that is that many afre buying stickers and putting them on toavoid paying for the vis. Any writing suggests someone had a concern regarding the tanks fitness. The writing means nothing legally but raises a flag as to whether the condition still exists or not. Its a human nature thing and not a CFR thing.

 

[NAM001]

This is the first I have heard that certain tanks require a PSI inspector. You got a citation for which types and where it is in the CFR?

call psi,,,,, it has to do with vis of I think one type of fiber tanks. It is now possible that other agencies are also now accepted. since I dont use those tanks & I dont keep up with them except for taking tests to renew my cert every 3 years.

I dug through my books , could not find the page i wanted to find,,, but I think it has to do with cylendars that are under E14209. I got it form a 2014 addition of the class. it was also a test question for that year aS TO WHO WAS AUTHORIZED TO PERFORM A VIS ON THAT TANK.

The tank in question was the Interspiro Divator Lite (E14209)

 

[runsongas]

sounds like fudd for psi pci to drum up more business

 

[JackD342]

call psi,,,,, it has to do with vis of sI think one type of fiber tanks. It is now possible that other agencies are also now accepted. since I dont use those tanks I dont keep up with them except for taking tests to renew my cert every 3 years.

It is the Luxfer composite cylinder with the 15 year lifespan. Sounds like the training is specialized and different from the standard VIP program.
PSI-PCI - Composite Cylinders for Diving

 

[NAM001]

I don't know why this is so confusing.

The LDS can't do squat to your cylinder other than decide to put a tumble on it to clarify the inspection. If the inspector determines that the cylinder is a fail on VIS they can mark it any way they want... Crayon, marker, tag on the valve, slap a fail VIS sticker on it... And write up the reason, giving it to you when you pick it up and pay for the inspection, But they can't permanently obliterate the DOT required shoulder markings or damage the cylinder in any way.

On the other-hand, if your cylinder is in a DOT certified Hyro testing facility; They will VIS the cylinder, and if it does pass (in their opinion), go on to test it. At that point if the cylinder fails, they may do a retest just to make sure, but a fail gets your cylinder permanently rendered inoperable. The don't ask, they don't try to justify, they don't make excuses, it is done. They are the fail-safe in the system mandating a specific cylinders testing requirement and have authority to do it. The hyro is done by machine set up with the proper test data for that cylinder and then they push a button and record the readings. No ambiguity, no guess work, no opinions or second guessing.

They will XXX the shoulder markings, and destroy it some way. It it is usually to ream the threads in the neck or put it in a V-vise and drill a large (or more) holes in flank, or do what they did to mine... cut it in half with a power band saw. They said that was the easiest for them on most all cylinder sizes and gives the customer back a couple planters.

The mistake you can make with the LDS is to give them permission to damage the cylinder if it fails the VIS in their opinion and that is all the VIS is, an opinion. If you take your cylinders to an LDS for vis... you make it clear that the cylinder is not to be damaged or altered in any way if the inspector fails it. Make it clear that you want to be in a position to get a second opinion and take it straight to the hydro shop.

Tell them them the LDS failed it on VIS and you want them to VIS and Hydro. Pay the money. If the cylinder does not make their VIS they won't hyro, and you have saved yourself some grief. - but they will not destroy or damage your cylinder, [unless it is aluminum and fails a proper current eddy test for that material] since the hydro fail is the last word. Now that is 2 people who says your "tank sucks", Now you can run around trying to find someone else to resurrect it and spend more money, your call.

If it does make their VIS, but fails the Hydro, you have saved yourself some grief and come away with some big honk'in paperweights. If it does pass their VIS and hydro, make sure you get the testing report, take it back to the LDS and give them some grief. As an aside... I used to have 3 US Divers cylinders (DOT E6498) I bought in the 70's... Eddy tested, hydro'ed and re-certified 3AL. One failed the eddy and the eddy re-test twice in one event and they cut it in half. I have the survivors eddy tested - pay the money, at each hrydro...

I think you have a pretty good summary here. Being PSI they recommend you get paid up front and get a permission to destroy prior to starting the vis process. They understand that the destruction aspect can be abused and push hard to say pass if at all possible and if not sure for any reason. do not condemn but reject for the purpose of getting a second opinion prior to formal condemning.

 

[NAM001]

It is the Luxfer composite cylinder with the 15 year lifespan. Sounds like the training is specialized and different from the standard VIP program.
PSI-PCI - Composite Cylinders for Diving

It may be and it probably is a tank that is full fiber and not used in diving. Probably used in SCBA aplications. There is one with a 15 life span and hydros required every 3 years.

Another hot item is how long a vis is good for. everyone answers 1 year and that also is wrong. the standard is up to one year if filled 2 or less times a week. in general vis every 100 fills , rentals are every 6 months and heavily used tanks every 50 fills quarterly if filled at sea on on a dive boat. This is from memory so the exact periods may be slightly different. I have that info in my books also and quickly looking at it I did not see the cfr reference for it. I will concede that there are times that PSI makes itself a source based on trying to make one rule fit all. They like to set the standard by the most conservative of the data. that happens somewhat in the area of O2 cleaning of tanks. Is this organizational or based on CFR I cant say for positive.