Question about “balanced rigs” and having all ballast unditchable

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This is the basic forum so talking about big steel doubles in a thick wetsuit is somewhat inapropriate ...
I'm not so sure that anyone is holding that point of view in this thread.

Maybe it boils down to seeing one's W/B as something different from being part of one's kit/gear.

A W/B is a disposable convenience (think Kleenex) that can be tossed in a nonce.
 
This is the basic forum so talking about big steel doubles in a thick wetsuit is somewhat inapropriate here I think and should be discussed elsewhere.

I don't think that's the case when discussing what "balanced rig" actually means. A description of what an unbalanced rig is, is certainly relevant when discussing what a balanced rig is.

have read and have also seen divers who rally in support of setting up their rigs so that they have no ditchable ballast. I’m assuming the reason for this is to streamline the rig, possibly make the rig trim out better,

Possibly, but it's just not related to the concept of a balanced rig. All the people I dive with, who dive a balanced rig, have some amount of ditchable weight.
 
A challenge I saw with that model is the corner holes. I was unsure about trusting small 1 lb. non block weights to them, (or 1/2 lb. in each if you get finicky) . I've been using the DGX 2-3 lb. trim pockets DGX Trim Weight Pocket (each) as they close with no little open holes, but they need to be threaded.... Maybe I'll try those as well, non threaded is very nice! Thanks!
I normally use 2lb soft weights in them, I have used 1lb soft without any issue. I suppose it would be possible to pour out a smaller bag though the hole but the Velcro etc does a good job of keeping it in.

I am pretty neurotic about correct weighting but I haven’t yet gotten to worrying about 1/2 pound increments :)
 
Eric,

I think divers are not taught to think high enough in their weighting, and available equipment encourages this -- I'm mildly focused on it and lose sight of the options. They just know weight belt, or the newer thing integrated, or, if they want to get advanced, there's mid back trim pockets. Talking normal rec. diver training here.

We need more visibility of good, slim, shoulder pocket options, no threading required; and common availability of 1 lb. weights for them.

By being where the weight is likely needed, BC mid-back trim pockets and BP/W plates tend the diver to out of trim if all the remaining weight is in the common, lower, ditch locations, waist integrated and weight belt. And to no-ditch if they leave nothing below....

BP/W are great for many reasons, and I would not see diving anything else. But extolling their trim benefits might skip over the staying ditchable as just one too many things to introduce at once. 'BP/W give great modularity, but you still want that weight belt, or $80+ integrated, and if you don't already some shoulder pockets, $20+, for trim while staying ditchable, and for tropics that leaves the plate being just 2 lb. of your ballast...., and you'll need the dive op to have lots of small weights"

To stay ditchable and in easy trim, some of the non-mid back weight needs to be higher. Shoulder or very top of BC pockets give the most bang for that weight. And no-thread shoulder strap pockets have an advantage of working with any BC. But modest of size to not interfere, no weight loosing holes, U.S. availability, and not very expensive would be good.

XSScuba has cheap non-thread pockets, but they are big 5 lb. ones, and not super secure, I started with them. DGX has nice cheap small no-holes trim pockets, but they need threading, which might not work with jackets, I use these now. RainPilot pointed out some nice non-threaded that seem very good, but not so cheap, and when I had looked in the past they were non U.S. distributers (not that all divers are U.S...).

When I've done guided boat dives, 2 lb. weights were in slim supply much less 1 lb. I'm unclear on why... the common price is by pound not piece.... So being stuck with 4 lb. to the shoulders is a big commitment, if you only needed 2 lb. I flew my own collection of 1 lb. weights with me..., not something we can expect of most divers. Even then, when I asked for four 2 lb. weights, for integrated and belt, they were hoping two 4 lb. might work. If you're equipping lots of random divers, why would you have mostly big weights? Those divers being anything but vertical when still was not at all an expectation. Over my two deep Belize dives, they were all vertical and kicking at each safety stop. My Hawaii dives I was last up so didn't see the other divers' stationary behavior as much.

(end rant...)

And Eric, I *applaud* your creating an AL Freedom plate version, for this very 'steel plate is usually just fine for the tropics', NOT, reason. There are recent threads of a Hawaii diver with 2 lb. whose location they could choose beyond their steel plate, and a tropics diver with 6 lb. total lead with AL 80 and small suit which would not leave much to play with if 4-5 lb. had been fixed to their BC back.
 
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The way I was taught (and teach) the “balanced rig” concept is as follows:

Determine the minimum safe ballast required to be neutral at the safety stop with an empty-ish tank and zero air in the wing.

Distribute that weight as required for trim.

Ensure that you have some of that ballast ditchable equivalent to the weight of the gas at the start of the dive.

BCD failure at start of dive, ditch gas weight ballast and you will be neutral. This allows for a controlled ascent.


At the end of the dive? Leave the weight alone allowing for a controlled ascent.

If you have any issues at the surface ditch the weight and then gear if needed.

IF you are correctly weighted you should be positive at the surface equivalent to your suit compression. You should never end up significantly negative at the surface.

The bolded statements may work great for warm water diving and little or no wetsuit, but they are not applicable to a two piece 7 mm wetsuit on a deep dive.

Again this is an example of trying to apply general statements, but they don't apply in certain situations. Wetsuit compression effects can easily be 15 or 20 lbs (or more) which is considerably more than the weight of the gas in a "recreational" diver's single tank.

Most people are going to be able to "kick up" the weight differential associated with a single tank, but the wetsuit compression can be 4 or 5 times larger (in certain situations).
 
The bolded statements may work great for warm water diving and little or no wetsuit, but they are not applicable to a two piece 7 mm wetsuit on a deep dive.

Again this is an example of trying to apply general statements, but they don't apply in certain situations. Wetsuit compression effects can easily be 15 or 20 lbs (or more) which is considerably more than the weight of the gas in a "recreational" diver's single tank.

Most people are going to be able to "kick up" the weight differential associated with a single tank, but the wetsuit compression can be 4 or 5 times larger (in certain situations).
Then wear a drysuit.

Problem solved.
 
The bolded statements may work great for warm water diving and little or no wetsuit, but they are not applicable to a two piece 7 mm wetsuit on a deep dive.

Again this is an example of trying to apply general statements, but they don't apply in certain situations. Wetsuit compression effects can easily be 15 or 20 lbs (or more) which is considerably more than the weight of the gas in a "recreational" diver's single tank.

Most people are going to be able to "kick up" the weight differential associated with a single tank, but the wetsuit compression can be 4 or 5 times larger (in certain situations).
I think RainPilot's weighting outline still works, partly as it was about the minimum ditchable for the surface part of a balanced rig. A thick suit puts you closer to the edge of basic diving and into maybe needing to ditch just to swim up, and being that much extra positive as you approach the surface. That depth ditch might be covered by the weight of air allowance, or it might need to be greater. I dive a 20/10 two piece, so I have sympathy. I'm not casual in my approach to depth. I haven't taken it deeper than ~70 feet but understand that industrial rubber may be close to fully crushed at that point anyway. And I dial my SS neutral a bit shallower.
 
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Diving between two worlds, I'm at home introducing new divers to the water in 1/2 inch of neoprene on a xxl wetsuit. That's basic local diving. I've done DSD classes with students in drysuits but the added taskloading isn't ideal (and we don't have enough drysuits). With this context in mind:

Rigs that don't require easily dropped weights to become positively buoyant are a luxury for those who have small tanks and not much neoprene. Easily achieved in bathtub like temperatures.

I'm not suggesting overweighting and I'm not suggesting all the weight needs to be quickly detachable. But I do insist at any point of the dive the diver can float up if needed if the bcd fails. That's about as balanced as we can get.

Alpinist divers with only one way to become positively buoyant, warm or cold water I feel are often taking an uncalculated risk, this thread should be great for awareness of those dangers.

Being in a rig that makes us sink with one bcd failure with no way of quickly stopping the descent seems like a bad day. The guy I brought up couple years (bcd fell to pieces, away from his group, too deep and sinking fast) stuck this idea firmly in my mind.

Cameron
 
Then wear a drysuit.

Problem solved.
Sure, if you’ve got the money.
Some don’t. Then stay shallow in your wetsuit and be happy. That’s what I do.
But then if they want to go deep pony up and get the right equip.
I can also go buy cheap tires and put them on a Ferrari and go 200 mph. They may or may not hold up, but if you get the correct rated tires for that speed then your percentage of survival just went way up.
I guess in diving, gear and equipment choices are all about what you think your life is worth...
 
Not to be too pedantic but this is from 1999. Dive computers were nowhere near being "in their infancy." The Orca Edge was released 15 years before that. Although to your point there weren't many computers geared towards the tech market at that point.

Maybe I shouldn't have said infancy, but from my understanding they were expensive (relatively speaking) and people didn't trust them like they do today. Back then they were optional and tables were common. You can't dive on most charter boats in Florida without a computer today. They are trusted and almost always mandatory.
 
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