How to kick effectively?

[Subcooled]

Yeah... we don't use hands. Fins and fins alone should be the diver's motile force. Less chance of scaring the fishies.

That is your choice, and that's fine. Beeing in control of ones legs is important. I am an ape however, and I have four extremities, and I use all of them. Legs mostly, but hands too. Why would I ignore half of my limbs?

A diver should not turn into a windmill however, so whatever is done, must be done with grace and with control.

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Silt on the bottom and the need to peek under rocks is a valid reason for the frog kick.

"divers using the frogkick usually have a decidedly lower SAC"

My assumption: The frogkick is usually mastered by more experienced divers, hence the lower SAC. I cannot believe that the frogkick would be much more efficient than the flutter kick as the flutter kick seems to work better in surface swimming: it gives more speed at same effort. It is true that in the frogkick the legs move against each other while in flutter kicks they do not, but I still remain sceptical as flutter is faster on the surface. Diving is a bit different so I might be wrong, though.

 

[TMHeimer]

I use arms or rare occasions, primarily breast stroke since that obviously is less drag as you push hands forward. When I used to cramp a lot it was helpful when resting a leg (or two). Sometimes I scull a bit to turn around as I can't back kick very well with split fins. But for normal swimming, no arms.
That frog kick video is blocked for Canada as well.

 

[ronscuba]

Some people prefer to frog kick, some prefer flutter. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages against one another. Depending on where and how you dive, you might find one type of kick more useful and choose to use that type of kick the majority of the time.

Fin manufacturers usually have a type of kick in mind when they design a particular model of fin.

 

[rongoodman]

Feet are not needed for turns and reversing. There are at least two ways of reversing with hands: the reverse breaststroke (inwards) and the palm propeller movement (needs less space sideways but is quite physical).

And if have a camera or light or spear in your hands? (And remember the rule of holes--when you find yourself in one, stop digging.)

 

[The Chairman]

My assumption:

Both of your assumptions are wrong. The need to breathe comes from the production of CO2. The less flailing you do with your arms, the less CO2 you'll produce. Ergo, the less you'll have to breathe. Quite often, simply getting a student to clasp their hands together will decrease their air consumption by %20. They can keep their kick and still enjoy lower air consumption simply by stop using their arms. In addition, most divers go waaaaaaay 2 phreakin' phast! They kick way too much and often miss all the cool stuff with their dashing and flailing. Water is very viscous. The faster you try to go, the more CO2 you'll produce, no matter what kick you're using. The frog kick lends itself to precision diving. Easy to turn on a dime with a gentle stroke on just one side. The diver is in control, and quite calm, not spooking the critters they're trying to see up close. I should point out that a calm diver in control has fewer "OMG I'm gonna die" incidents. You don't have to be an 'experienced' diver to enjoy this calm way of diving where you control the dive rather than the dive controlling you. I had breakfast with one of my students this past Friday. Less than a dozen dives and his SAC is just under .4.

Some people prefer to frog kick, some prefer flutter. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages against one another.

Indeed. As a retired mechanic, I have an extensive tool kit and I try to use the right tool for the job. If all you have is a hammer, then then world becomes a nail. I find that the flutter kick is universally known, but only about %10 of divers can frog kick effectively. Sure, it's a more difficult kick to master, but I have never met the person who took the time to do that who has felt it was a waste of time or who has not adopted it as their primary kick. Don't let simple ignorance determine the kick you use. Add this tool to your kit and you won't be disappointed. Here's my list of pros and cons for each kick:

• Flutter Kick
  • Pros
    • Easy (intuitive)
    • Fast (which can be a con)
  • Cons
    • High air consumption
    • Easy silt outs
    • Need hands to turn
• Frog Kick
  • Pros
    • Low air consumption
    • Very precise (look ma, no hands!)
    • No silt outs
    • Less traumatic to marine life
    • Slow (definitely not a 'con')
    • You look mahvelous!!! (In your best Billy Crystal voice)
  • Cons
    • harder to learn and master (but worth it!!!)

Fin manufacturers usually have a type of kick in mind when they design a particular model of fin.

Yes, they do. Trying to do a proper frog kick with split fins or fins that are very soft is futile. The frog kick requires a somewhat stiff paddle fin. You don't need them to be board stiff, but they can't be prone to collapsing at any point in the kick. I actually prefer a softer tip than the Jet Fins I learned on. You can do a modified frog or skull with a split fin, but they collapse under a full frog kick, both in the power and load parts of the kick.

FWIW, I do use my arms in two situations. When I'm using pull and glide (high currents) and when I'm teaching paraplegics.

 

[Nianne]

BTW, when you tow someone at the surface, the swim that lifeguards learn is the frog kick on your back ... It's the most efficient and the better way to tow without exhausting yourself.

And for air consumption, it's simple. At the surface, if you crawl, you'll swimm faster but have a higher heart rate.
If you breaststroke, you can go slower and keep your heart rate super slow.
Why wouldn't it be the same underwater ?


I've always wondered why learning how to properly kick at the surface was not the first exercise of the OW.
Or the first thing you ask a try dive or a DSD to do.

 

[ronscuba]

Divers with poor trim who are close to the bottom, kick up sand.

Yes, if you cave or wreck penetration dive, you want to fog kick. Out in the open water, you can be within 3 ft of the bottom and not kick up sand with a flutter. Don't believe me ? Watch the video clip I posted earlier. They are using 3 ft long fins and not kicking up sand. They key is proper trim and a proper narrow width flutter kick.

A flutter kick has higher air consumption in comparison to the frog, but I would not say it is to blame for peoples high air use. Diving with an easy relaxed flutter kick, air consumption is not an issue.

Not all dives are looking for small critters. Sometimes you do want to cover distance or are diving in current. Look at freedivers. They want a kick that balances covering distance while minimizing effort because they dive with one breath. No surprise, they use a flutter kick.

I turn using my ankles. Some call it a helicopter turn. Speaking of ankles, with my legs in flutter position, I will flick my ankles to slowly move me forward or adjust position.

Learn the different kicks and use the kick that fits the situation or your own personal preference. As long as you are safe, not negatively affecting others dive experience, it doesn't matter to me what kick you use, or your gear choices, BCD, fins, dive compute, etc..

Looking marvelous ? I like the long sleek lines of proper flutter kick. Watch the video i posted.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Frog kicking is simple in theory.

I'm able to teach it to newly certified OW students. It takes a bit of getting used to. Some students pick it up instantly.

Feet are not needed for turns and reversing. There are at least two ways of reversing with hands:

Why don't we scrap fins all together and just use our hands for everything? Seriously, using fins to propel/turn in any direction is far smoother and effective than with hands. Also, as was previously mentioned: cameras.

Why on earth would you need the frog kick?

Silt. Lots of silt. Less disturbing of the sea floor.

I find frog kicking quite efficient, and relaxing. Perfect for diving.

 

[The Chairman]

Divers with poor trim who are close to the bottom, kick up sand.

And flutter kicking. You can do the shuffle flutter close, but I find that's harder to teach than the frog.

I'm able to teach it to newly certified OW students. It takes a bit of getting used to. Some students pick it up instantly.

I found that five minutes sitting on the back of the van, side by side, with my student matching my leg/ankle/foot motions reduces the learning curve significantly. I start with them imitating only one foot (feather, twist, thrust), then the other and then together. I sometimes demonstrate the scooping concept with my hands as well, mimicking how the leg is supposed to move so they can visualize it. I also try to get them to visualize the power of the frog kick going through the bottoms of their toes. I only have a very few students who can't catch on and that's usually due to equipment issues.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I found that five minutes sitting on the back of the van, side by side, with my student matching my leg/ankle/foot motions reduces the learning curve significantly. I start with them imitating only one foot (feather, twist, thrust), then the other and then together. I sometimes demonstrate the scooping concept with my hands as well, mimicking how the leg is supposed to move so they can visualize it. I also try to get them to visualize the power of the frog kick going through the bottoms of their toes. I only have a very few students who can't catch on and that's usually due to equipment issues.

Pete. I'm stealing that. Thanks.