NACD Instructor standards violation

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Thank you for reply, and appreciate the NACD's stance.

So going back to post 218 +/-, lets say hypothetically you have an intro diver that is IANTD, and the student is being taken into Lower OG/Hendleys for a TDI AN/DP class, would the NACD have a reply/concern for this, or is this another agency's problem?


The reason I ask is your reply is NACD concentric, which was well drafted, and an appropriate stance based on NACD standards etc. But, when I think back to the "Etiquette" thread, there was a concern for the industry of cave diving as a whole, and wanting to lead the way to fix the problems as a whole. That I admire because that is what will lead the NACD and CDS to have survivability in the future, and be a leader in the area of cave diving. I am hoping, and maybe I have misplaced hope, that an organization will step forward and say we don't support the practice of taking an intro diver to Lower OG or Hendleys as part of deep training. The NACD did this once with open water divers being taken to Eagles Nest, so I know a past precedent is there. Thank you.

Good question, maybe I can provide a response.I say MAYBE because it is not easy when more then one agency is involved. I tried to get a feel of more than one agency before I answered this, so hopefully I can do them all justice in what I write.

Lets keep in mind a couple of other things as per NACD standards. The NACD intro diver is also not a diver to be doing deco dives nor dives off the main line , THIS IS CLEAR IN THE NACD STANDARDS. The intro diver must dive within NDLs. that means AND THE INTENT IS, they are building up awareness of the cave and limitations. The intro diver must learn that not only time limits and air limits are a factor BUT also that penetration limits must be factored into the dive. Depth, Gas, Time and Penetration are all limitations at the Intro level ( no jumps, gaps or T's) . Also add that the intro cave diver must not dive where major restrictions are present, dive using complex forms of navigation and stay on the main gold line only. The into cave diver must plan for a dive not to be requiring any deco obligation.

It is acceptable for the intro diver to learn deco procedures prior to doing a full cave class, in fact recommended. What is not acceptable is for a instructor to use the cave environment to learn these skills using a location that is deeper than the intro certification allows. Example: Can a instructor teach deco procedures to depths of 100 feet adding a cave element consideration to training and not violate the into level limitations? (currently the NACD doesn't have such a course however TDI does as an example). Doing so doesn't violate the cert level regarding depth but introduces the cave environment specifics and additionally may not violate the (current) NACD standards. If the course is taught as a TDI AN/DP course (that is not NACD) within the cave environment the TDI intro cave limits still take precedence. (TDI has a cave diving program of courses) The TDI Instructor should seek an alternate location to utilize the maximum 150 ft depth of the An/Dp class. In either case this should put Lower OG or Hendley's Castle out of range. Add to the type of entry to penetrate and the location is unsuitable for the class.

FACT: Every NACD instructor has a requirement that they must also hold teaching status with an additional OW agency. (NACD + PADI, NACD + SSI, NACD + SDI/TDI, NACD+NAUI, etc). The NACD has in its standards, by-laws and procedures,the consideration of professional ethics. One ethic states to the effect that the instructor must never place the student in a position of risk or go beyond the certification level of the student within the cave environment at any time. (training level advancement is not going beyond as long as standards are adhered to, example full cave allows for 130 ft max depth) So while it may not be a NACD sanctioned course, the NACD instructor may not be removed or clear from NACD standards because of ethics if they are using a cave environment for training. The Dilemma

The best practice, is to teach such a class in a location that doesn't lend to a possible violation of standards of any agency. Where required use a location to achieve the required depths of the agency to which the program is instructed under without violating standards.

I apologize if this doesn't make sense I have been pushing some long hours. I hope it answers some of the concerns
 
By the same standards you applied to your former training director leading to his suspension, you now need to suspend Babyduck's instructor who did the same, plus deep training in Hendley's castle.
Per your explanation, you also need to suspend every NACD instructors teaching Trimix and Advanced Trimix to Full Cave certified divers in a cave environment, for example Eagles nest.
Will you do that or does your logic only apply to those who have fallen from grace?
 
Good question, maybe I can provide a response.I say MAYBE because it is not easy when more then one agency is involved. I tried to get a feel of more than one agency before I answered this, so hopefully I can do them all justice in what I write.

Lets keep in mind a couple of other things as per NACD standards. The NACD intro diver is also not a diver to be doing deco dives nor dives off the main line , THIS IS CLEAR IN THE NACD STANDARDS. The intro diver must dive within NDLs. that means AND THE INTENT IS, they are building up awareness of the cave and limitations. The intro diver must learn that not only time limits and air limits are a factor BUT also that penetration limits must be factored into the dive. Depth, Gas, Time and Penetration are all limitations at the Intro level ( no jumps, gaps or T's) . Also add that the intro cave diver must not dive where major restrictions are present, dive using complex forms of navigation and stay on the main gold line only. The into cave diver must plan for a dive not to be requiring any deco obligation.

It is acceptable for the intro diver to learn deco procedures prior to doing a full cave class, in fact recommended. What is not acceptable is for a instructor to use the cave environment to learn these skills using a location that is deeper than the intro certification allows. Example: Can a instructor teach deco procedures to depths of 100 feet adding a cave element consideration to training and not violate the into level limitations? (currently the NACD doesn't have such a course however TDI does as an example). Doing so doesn't violate the cert level regarding depth but introduces the cave environment specifics and additionally may not violate the (current) NACD standards. If the course is taught as a TDI AN/DP course (that is not NACD) within the cave environment the TDI intro cave limits still take precedence. (TDI has a cave diving program of courses) The TDI Instructor should seek an alternate location to utilize the maximum 150 ft depth of the An/Dp class. In either case this should put Lower OG or Hendley's Castle out of range. Add to the type of entry to penetrate and the location is unsuitable for the class.

FACT: Every NACD instructor has a requirement that they must also hold teaching status with an additional OW agency. (NACD + PADI, NACD + SSI, NACD + SDI/TDI, NACD+NAUI, etc). The NACD has in its standards, by-laws and procedures,the consideration of professional ethics. One ethic states to the effect that the instructor must never place the student in a position of risk or go beyond the certification level of the student within the cave environment at any time. (training level advancement is not going beyond as long as standards are adhered to, example full cave allows for 130 ft max depth) So while it may not be a NACD sanctioned course, the NACD instructor may not be removed or clear from NACD standards because of ethics if they are using a cave environment for training. The Dilemma

The best practice, is to teach such a class in a location that doesn't lend to a possible violation of standards of any agency. Where required use a location to achieve the required depths of the agency to which the program is instructed under without violating standards.

I apologize if this doesn't make sense I have been pushing some long hours. I hope it answers some of the concerns

Thank you for taking the time for a reply.

---------- Post added May 22nd, 2015 at 05:37 AM ----------

By the same standards you applied to your former training director leading to his suspension, you now need to suspend Babyduck's instructor who did the same, plus deep training in Hendley's castle.
Per your explanation, you also need to suspend every NACD instructors teaching Trimix and Advanced Trimix to Full Cave certified divers in a cave environment, for example Eagles nest.
Will you do that or does your logic only apply to those who have fallen from grace?

I think he said in an earlier comment, if there is a complaint that they need a written complaint submitted.
 
There is nothing wrong with a certified cave diver taking a trimix class in a deep cave. The instructor must be a cave and trimix instructor.
 
There is nothing wrong with a certified cave diver taking a trimix class in a deep cave. The instructor must be a cave and trimix instructor.

I agree with you fully, and while I disagree with Oliver's overall point....I agree with his logic. The NACD doesn't (as far as I can tell) have any exceptions for END, and are depth limiting even at the Full Cave level to 130ft. PSAI clearly states that at the Full Cave level you're limited to an END of 130ft when in the overhead.
 
There is nothing wrong with a certified cave diver taking a trimix class in a deep cave. The instructor must be a cave and trimix instructor.
I agree with your comment 100%, but what if we use the verbage of certified intro cave diver, and think that is where some people including myself are hung up. Jim you always provide an objective insight with thoughtful commentary.
 
I agree with your comment 100%, but what if we use the verbage of certified intro cave diver, and think that is where some people including myself are hung up. Jim you always provide an objective insight with thoughtful commentary.

An intro to cave diver has no business in a deep cave. :no: Any NSSCDS instructor shown, with CREDIBLE evidence, not hearsay evidence to have conducted this type training with a intro to cave diver will be suspended immediately and a formal QA inquiry will be started.
 
An intro to cave diver has no business in a deep cave. :no: Any NSSCDS instructor shown, with CREDIBLE evidence, not hearsay evidence to have conducted this type training with a intro to cave diver will be suspended immediately and a formal QA inquiry will be started.

Can't argue with that-straight to the point. Thank you!
 
I think he said in an earlier comment, if there is a complaint that they need a written complaint submitted.
The student posted a first hand account along with dive details and the instructor's name. If the NACD doesn't have the self initiative to investigate, that's just as wrong as the instructor in question IMO.
 
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