Razor 2.0 or 2.1 or SMS75

[victorzamora]

I would have to agree that there's basically only one reason the SMS100 is a very common rig around the Florida caves.

It's got an incredibly effective marketing campaign going by someone who is selling tons of them, plus selling a lot of modifications on top of that.
So from looking at it, it's all about the money, not this being an all superiour dive rig.
Others brands have stuff that will work nicely too with steel tanks, for example the Halcyon Contour, the Armadillo and possibly the new Hog.

Having said that, virtually nobody in Florida uses a Razor, be it 2.1 or 2.0 because it simply sucks with the type (and amount) of tanks and gas used.

Oliver, I'm sure you know this, but the same person selling the sms100 by the tractor load and the mods for them (Edd) designed the Contour and the Hog. The armadillo was the spiritual predecessor to the Hollis. The reason he sells the sms100 is because it was the easiest to modify into the best rig.

Now that the sms75, hog, and halcyon are on the market, they're better options as they're pre modified per Edd's input.

You should also know the reason Edd dives and sells the sms100 in the numbers he does (especially did) is because it's the rig he most believed in.

 

[nakatomi]

Victor, I dive two SMS100 and really like the rig, so I'm certainly not knocking it or the modifcations that were put into it.
It's just my opinion that quite a lot of rigs (of course also of those that were on the market before the Contour, SMS75 and Hog) can be made to work equally well, especially the Armadillo, which essentially is a modified SMS100.
My point was, it's about making money, which is perfectly fine with me by the way.

 

[victorzamora]

Victor, I dive two SMS100 and really like the rig, so I'm certainly not knocking it or the modifcations that were put into it.
It's just my opinion that quite a lot of rigs (of course also of those that were on the market before the Contour, SMS75 and Hog) can be made to work equally well, especially the Armadillo, which essentially is a modified SMS100.
My point was, it's about making money, which is perfectly fine with me by the way.

I didn't mean it grumpy. My point was that Edd had his choice in any rig to dive and sell and promote. Now that the three Edd designed rigs are out, the options for the big style harnesses have gotten to the point where you don't need the mods anymore.

Plenty of other rigs can be made to work, but I've had the most success with the sms100. Edd did, too. That's one reason he abandoned the Nomad (though he still sells and mods nomads). Before the new 3 came out, that was the one he had most success with. He could've chosen any rig to sell as his choice, but the sms100 have him the best results.

---------- Post added August 16th, 2014 at 10:10 AM ----------

Also, to add, I'm about to buy a sidemount harness for my wife. The sms100 is not on the list. The Hog, Halcyon, and SMS75 are. So is the stealth

 

[Razorista]

I do not get it really.

Isn't it enough that Edd is confirmed from several independent sources to be diving this rig himself?

I do not know many 'important' divers, but at every local diving school there are some who do not like the rigs the shop is selling and they have to dive as instructors.
Those people dive other systems in their own time mostly and most do not stay with that school forever and try to find other places to continue.

Considering an Edd-modified SMS100 is almost unrecognizable, he probably just took it on the same basis as the Nomad: a platform for modification. He might even hate it, but he clearly knows how to make it usable - so who cares?

Why would someone like Edd Sorenson use a rig he considers inadequate for his dives? Even if he could do it with any system, why would he?
I wouldn't and I think few others would. (I mean, he is regarded with something resembling 'worship' by some people and that is just basics he is considered to blatantly ignore, why?)

---------- Post added August 16th, 2014 at 06:26 PM ----------

@nakatomi
Hy, nice to meet you again.

You are probably right that money is always involved some way.
That's why I prefer to always analyze systems only on their own merits and technical details and never by who is diving them or where he is doing that.

 

[djcheburashka]

I have some additional comments on trimming out tanks with the razor based on this morning's tests.

For right now, I just want to point out for Razoristas benefit that my first dive of the day was a rear entry from a boat with two stage bottles, no e-line, and no gear passed down.

I was not killed during the process.

 

[Razorista]

@djcheburahka
Are we on speaking terms again?
Speaking for myself I am very interested to hear what you found out.

I was not killed during the process.

I would not have expected you to.
But neither you nor me would find it comfortable adding a scooter to that while on the boat for example.
You sound like you could and probably would do even that, I wouldn't even try to find out and seek alternative ways directly.

We always where of the same opinion in one fact at least: The Razor is capable of carrying a lot of load.
We would probably both admit that it can be much easier and simpler to hang some heavy steel tanks from an old-fashioned buttplate on an SMS system then doing it on a Razor. It can be done elegantly very often, however.

 

[djcheburashka]

My point was, it's about making money, which is perfectly fine with me by the way.

I'm glad someone else recognizes how much of this stuff is driven by that. If lots of people are using the Hollis, I have to assume part of that is Oceanic's massive marketing, manufacturing, and distribution infrastructure which (to their credit) dwarfs the others combined.

The razor's poor adoption in cave country is I think driven by two factors. The first is that SB failed to develop instructors and dealers in the region. There's no-one there who really focuses on the razor to train on it, no-one to sell it to students, etc.

The second, which is related, is I think SB really wanted the razor to be the sidemount variant of DIR. It's "dir-ish," which is one of the reasons folks like me with that background like it. He put a lot of energy into appealing to the DIR/GUE community. They *didnt* pick-up the razor, and instead waited for Halcyon to bring a competing product to market (ignoring, properly, UTD's little foray). From a business perspective that's a fundamental failure of a marketing plan. If they want to be real contenders, they need to start seeding a lot more instructors.

 

[shoredivr]

It's just my opinion that quite a lot of rigs (of course also of those that were on the market before the Contour, SMS75 and Hog) can be made to work equally well, especially the Armadillo, which essentially is a modified SMS100.

It's my understanding that the Nomad and the Armadillo were being dived for years before Hollis brought out the SMS100, so it's more like the Hollis SMS100 is actually a modified Armadillo....

 

[Razorista]

...I think SB really wanted the razor to be the sidemount variant of DIR...

I think Steve had more or less 'gotten over DIR' long before developing the Razor.

From the marketing standpoint I thing he had thought about cooperating with UTD first, when they came to him for teaching and probably brought that up.
But after them releasing a directly competing system (with some parts he would not approve of, in my opinion) he probably got a bit irritated.

His reaction seems to have been to try to lead a niche in the market with a low production volume and high priced reference system combined with training that is specialized and optimized for only that.

Concentrating on few instructors helps to keep up quality.
No big organization involved (except for TDI for the non sidemount training) and also no big manufacturer.

This leads to them essentially getting the Razor at a production cost that is conceivably not much lower than a normal customer price for similar equipment.
It also leads to a low production volume, as they could not afford to produce volumes similar to a large equipment manufacturer.
However it also leads to them having a business centered on the things they do best with enough turnout to keep going as long as they can stay ahead of the market (they seem to be successful enough at the moment).

I do not presume to know Steves thinking myself, but I do not see the strategy as faulty.

 

[djcheburashka]

Thank you for continuing to endlessly share you uninformed speculation in lengthy posts. What you fail to contribute in quality, you more than make up for in volume. Perhaps one say someone will read one and take away 1/100th of the joy you got hearing yourself write.