Recreational Limits, confusing or is it just me?

[Redshift]

Actually, those limits that some people say are only recommendations and can be forgotten after the courses (although in practice dive centres usually enforce such limits, and of course people are free to do what they want, so that can't be used as an argument) are law in Europe.

[h=3]Scuba divers at level 2 "Autonomous Diver" are qualified to dive within the following parameters unless they have additional training or are accompanied by a dive leader:[/h]

• dive to a recommended maximum depth of 20 m with other scuba divers of the same level,
• make dives, which do not require in-water decompression stops,
• dive only when appropriate support is available at the surface,
• dive under conditions that are equal or better than the conditions where they were trained.

If diving conditions are significantly different from those previously experienced, a scuba diver at level 2 "Autonomous Diver" requires an appropriate orientation from a dive leader.
If accompanied by a scuba instructor, a scuba diver at level 2 "Autonomous Diver" may gain progressive experience beyond these parameters and develop competency in managing more challenging diving conditions (e.g. increased depth and current, reduced visibility, extreme temperatures) designed to lead to higher qualifications.

EN 14153-2 / ISO 24801-2

So two OW divers cannot exceed their "recommended" training standard. They can only do so if accompanied by a professional or after further training.

 

[Rich Keller]

People vary in how intimidated they are by depth, how prone to narcosis, how comfortable they are in the water and how quickly they develop proficiency.

None of that's easy for a dive op., insurance company, judge or jury to measure. Certifications are. Thus the imperfect system we have now.

I've got one more cert. & probably a good 50 dives more than my main dive buddy, yet he's better in the water than I am.

Richard.

It all comes down to are they "good in the water". Most of that comes with time and experience but there are some naturals out there too. I believe the limits are good for a newly certified diver as a starting point and they should advance from there on their own terms and at their own speed. I dove with one guy that have a fist full of certification cards and could not figure out how much weight he needed to get down so he spent the dive swimming on the surface above me on a shallow water shore dive. He could not snorkel though because he was too advanced to need one so he just breathed off his tank. Another guy on his first open water dive after training went through 40 cu/ft of air to my 15 cu/ft during the first 1/2 of a dive then settled down during the 2nd 1/2 and went through 20 cu/ft to my 10 cu/ft. That to me seemed like a vast improvement for a new diver in a very short time based only on his experience in the first 1/2 of the dive. I would much rather dive with someone who is "good in the water" with a new OW certification over the person that has lots of certifications and all kinds of gear that has learned little from their open water experience.

 

[Wookie]

From an operator's perspective. An OW card is good to 130 feet. AN for 150 feet, DP for deco, normoxic trimix to 200 feet, trimix to 300 feet, and extended range trimix or expedition trimix deeper than 300 feet. Or the metric equivalent. Want to penetrate a shipwreck beyond the natural light zone? Full cave or advanced wreck penetration. Dive recreationally by yourself? Solo or PADI Self Reliant. Nitrox divers must have a nitrox card, which I think is silly. It's just like breathing. My insurance company gave me these guidelines. Whatever your instructor's or shop's opinion is just that, an opinion, and we all know the saying about opinions.

On a recreational dive trip, we limit our divers to 130 feet no deco single tank diving. We tailor other dive trips to other certification levels, but do not mix and match dive trips.

All other cards are fluff to this operator.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Actually, those limits that some people say are only recommendations and can be forgotten after the courses (although in practice dive centres usually enforce such limits, and of course people are free to do what they want, so that can't be used as an argument) are law in Europe.

I haven't read anywhere that anyone said that. One of the really annoying habits of some posters on ScubaBoard is that they take a reasonable statement that someone made and stretch it into something that appears unreasonable. This is one of those times. No instructor worth the name would tell any student of theirs that their training "can be forgotten after the courses". What many of us do try to do is explain what these "rules" are for, and the fact that in many cases they are rules of thumb ... not enforceable by anyone other than the diver themselves. The point of that is to help divers understand that diving is more about making good decisions than it is blindly following some set of guidelines without comprehending why they exist.

So two OW divers cannot exceed their "recommended" training standard. They can only do so if accompanied by a professional or after further training.

So since this is a law, if they should choose to exceed their "recommended" training standard, what is the penalty? And who enforces it?

A law without some functional enforcement capability behind it is useless.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

From an operator's perspective. An OW card is good to 130 feet. AN for 150 feet, DP for deco, normoxic trimix to 200 feet, trimix to 300 feet, and extended range trimix or expedition trimix deeper than 300 feet. Or the metric equivalent. Want to penetrate a shipwreck beyond the natural light zone? Full cave or advanced wreck penetration. Dive recreationally by yourself? Solo or PADI Self Reliant. Nitrox divers must have a nitrox card, which I think is silly. It's just like breathing. My insurance company gave me these guidelines. Whatever your instructor's or shop's opinion is just that, an opinion, and we all know the saying about opinions.

On a recreational dive trip, we limit our divers to 130 feet no deco single tank diving We tailor other dive trips to other certification levels, but do not mix and match dive trips.

All other cards are fluff to this operator.

... those are the rules as set by yourself ... a business owner ... and apply strictly to clients of your business. Other businesses are free to set their own rules ... many of which differ from yours. That's why it's important before booking on a dive charter to (a) ask what the rules of the business are, and (b) be willing to respect and abide by those rules. Those rules can exist for any number of reasons, ranging from personal preference of the business owner to legal liabilities to what their insurance coverage specifies. In most cases the purpose of them isn't for diver safety ... it's to protect the interests of the business.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Wookie]

... those are the rules as set by yourself ... a business owner ... and apply strictly to clients of your business. Other businesses are free to set their own rules ... many of which differ from yours. That's why it's important before booking on a dive charter to (a) ask what the rules of the business are, and (b) be willing to respect and abide by those rules. Those rules can exist for any number of reasons, ranging from personal preference of the business owner to legal liabilities to what their insurance coverage specifies. In most cases the purpose of them isn't for diver safety ... it's to protect the interests of the business.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

And that's why I changed the statement to the way I do things, rather than the way everyone does things. I feel the need to set the rules to comply with insurance company requirements so that in the event of litigation, my insurance will be in effect.

There is no scuba police.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Now a bit about agency standards and recommendations ...

Standards are what a specific agency has determined to be reasonable limits for diver training. They are enforceable only during training classes for that particular agency, and are meant as limits for the dive instructor to follow while conducting training. Outside of class, no agency has any enforcement capability whatsoever ... in other words, they are not the scuba police. The limits they provide you with are guidelines ... only you can decide whether or not you choose to follow them. Furthermore, things like depth recommendations vary from agency to agency. Just like the charter operations, agency standards are more for the protection of the agency than the protection of the diver.

I once had a student who got very annoyed with me because my answer to many of his questions began with the words "It depends". He was a lawyer by profession, and he wanted specific answers to questions that, frankly, don't have them. That's true of many things in scuba diving ... it's OK to blindly follow guidelines and recommendations if that makes you comfortable, but keep in mind that anything that comes with a specific value attached has been reduced to a "lowest common denominator" with a bit more safety margin thrown in out of liability concerns ... in other words, the agencies that produce those recommendations want to make sure that if somebody does something and ends up injured or dead they can't use "but the agency told me it was OK" as an excuse to blame the agency.

The reality is that, upon certification, you will have been trained to a certain basic level ... and hopefully have been given enough training to make informed choices about what you should and shouldn't do. Notice I didn't say "can and can't" ... because the reality is that as a certified scuba diver you have tremendous latitude to make decisions about how you dive. The adage applies "just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD do it". Don't just rely on someone else to make them for you without at least understanding why they are giving you the limits (or lack thereof) that they are. That's how divers get in trouble ... and why so many of us tell newer divers to avoid doing "trust me" dives.

You, and only you, are responsible for your safety ... agencies can provide you with guidelines, but in most cases you get to decide how they apply to your dive. Make good choices ... your life often depends on it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[dbulmer]

Actually, those limits that some people say are only recommendations and can be forgotten after the courses (although in practice dive centres usually enforce such limits, and of course people are free to do what they want, so that can't be used as an argument) are law in Europe.



So two OW divers cannot exceed their "recommended" training standard. They can only do so if accompanied by a professional or after further training.

The UK lies in the continent of Europe and is a member of the EU (for the time being at least ).
You are not breaking the law in the UK if you dive without a certification therefore certification limits are somewhat academic.

I'm not arguing that certification is a bad thing but it is inaccurate to describe certification and its limits apply to the whole of Europe.

 

[slane]

I've always been of the opinion that a certified diver is a certified diver, and that means they're qualified (on paper) to make any dive they want to that's within recreational diving limits. That means they're good to 130'. Do I feel that a diver should continue with training beyond OW? Absolutely, but many don't see the need and/or are unwilling to spend any more money on training when they could put that money toward their upcoming dive vacation.

 

[TSandM]

slane, I disagree. The divers we certify for open water COULD execute a (very brief!) dive to 130 feet, and come back up okay, if all went well. But they simply don't have enough time in the water at the end of four dives to know that they could maintain their equanimity (not to mention their buoyancy control) if they had to handle an emergency at 130 feet. And most of them have gas consumption rates that would make a dive to that depth a risky endeavor.

A year later, with 75 to 100 dives under their belts, and the opportunity to deal with a variety of minor issues in the water, they are very different divers.

I have no problem at all telling people that they really ought to stay shallow until they build experience. New skiers stay on green hills; new riders ride quiet, older horses. New divers should dive relatively shallow, benign sites, and gain confidence and competence there before proceeding deeper.