Recreational Limits, confusing or is it just me?

[NAM001]

Gif the post you quoted says TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE past OW. So by theat post what do you have for a limit with out the additional training AND experience. That statement implies that experience is ot a substitute for training. And that also9 the limit is 130 with said traigin adn experience that is above and beyond OW.

and to help remove my confusion, exactly what training and exactly what experience?

what? it does not say? you mean there is no definition of what this vague phrase means? no wonder I am confused.....

is 10 dives enough experience? how about 30? 300? or 600? surely 800 is enough?

if it is not quantifiable, then it is a meaningless and useless statement. it just creates confusion.

---------- Post added July 20th, 2014 at 09:48 PM ----------

I am not trying to be a dick about this (well maybe I am), just trying to make sure we all agree on a common understanding.

My belief is that PADI has 1 recreational limit: 130 feet. It has some recommendations that speak to other depth limits. It also recommends that you use a snorkel...

 

[AfterDark]

Gif the post you quoted says TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE past OW. So by theat post what do you have for a limit with out the additional training AND experience. That statement implies that experience is ot a substitute for training. And that also9 the limit is 130 with said traigin adn experience that is above and beyond OW.

IMO experience is training and better because it's done in the world. Most of my experience/training took place in low vis not a pool. The hazards were real and focus was intense lest a mistake be made. As I've posted before years later when I took AOW I slept thru most of the class room portion and the dives were a joke. Most of the dives I do solo were more challenging than any of the AWO dives I did. As in the working world I'll take experience over training any day.

 

[NAM001]

That may be fine for you however in regards to the statement TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE coupled with PAST OW seems to be at odds with your positon.

IMO experience is training and better because it's done in the world. Most of my experience/training took place in low vis not a pool. The hazards were real and focus was intense lest a mistake be made. As I've posted before years later when I took AOW I slept thru most of the class room portion and the dives were a joke. Most of the dives I do solo were more challenging than any of the AWO dives I did. As in the working world I'll take experience over training any day.

---------- Post added July 25th, 2014 at 11:26 PM ----------

As Drbill said in the previous post #50, His cert was good for 130. There was only one cert available and that was it. The training was 40 some hours included first aide , cpr dive tables and included basic theory of deco. It is troublesome that so many see no difference in the training level of the past and present. 130 is recreational diving limit that has not changed. Only the course has changed from one part to perhaps 6-7 parts. Part one does not equal the whole.

Dr bill did his i think in hte early 60's i did ymca in the late 60's. OW or OW through MASTER courses dont come near in comparison to what is taught in those early decades. The only thing that has changed is the card slightly from OWD/SCUBADIVER to OW AOW MASTER.

No recreational agency in todays letigous environment will put a statement that says "You are CERTIFIED to do dives to XXX depth" So if the depth was 60 ft and a diver died at 55, the family will say he died at 55 because his certification training was at fault. When you say Your recomended diving limit is 60 based on existing conditions experience that does not exceed the training environment you certrified in the agency is off the hook. The buck has been passed to the new diver.

If you want to dive to 100 ft then take the 100' AOW training , no matter how much of a joke it may be for some, Its a hoop you need to jump through. In regards to experience.... No course can give you that experience which can only come from utilizing the training.

I just looked at the PADI book and on the back it says

"The PADI Open Water DIVER course and certification provides you with the knowlwdge and skill to dive confidently, and it connects you with..... "

The blanket legalistic course description does not even acknoledge a 130" limit to the training or recreational diving.

---------- Post added July 26th, 2014 at 04:42 AM ----------

Gif

I have been on trips where the brief I once got was . Max depth for the all was 130 ft. Exceed it and you sit out the rest of the day. Would you call that a statement of permitted depth for all divers or a statement of consequence for violators of rec depth limits even if you held a tech card for deeper depths?

it is confusing since the official rules are vague: "within training and experience". what kind of training? how much experience?

but this doesn't matter since it really boils down to the dive op rules.

 

[Bob DBF]

As Drbill said in the previous post #50, His cert was good for 130. There was only one cert available and that was it. The training was 40 some hours included first aide , cpr dive tables and included basic theory of deco. It is troublesome that so many see no difference in the training level of the past and present. 130 is recreational diving limit that has not changed. Only the course has changed from one part to perhaps 6-7 parts. Part one does not equal the whole.

My problem with the practice is that you recieve the cert after part 1, and never have to take parts 2 - 6. Kind of like taking a cavern course and being given a full cave cert.

No recreational agency in todays letigous environment will put a statement that says "You are CERTIFIED to do dives to XXX depth" So if the depth was 60 ft and a diver died at 55, the family will say he died at 55 because his certification training was at fault. When you say Your recomended diving limit is 60 based on existing conditions experience that does not exceed the training environment you certrified in the agency is off the hook. The buck has been passed to the new diver.

If the Limit was 60' they would have no more liability than it being within recreational limits as it is now. You were trained for the cert, it is not on the agency if you F up and forget your training.

RSTC

( http://www.wrstc.com/downloads/03 - Open Water Diver.pdf )
Open water certification qualifies a certified diver to procure air, equipment, and other
services and engage in recreational open water diving without supervision. It is the intent of this
standard that certified open water divers shall have received training in the fundamentals of
recreational diving from an instructor (see definition). A certified open water diver is qualified
to apply the knowledge and skills outlined in this standard to plan, conduct, and log open-water,
no-required decompression dives when properly equipped, and accompanied by another certified
diver.

My red highlight.
Recreational diving limit is, at this time, agreed upon to be 130'.


If you want to dive to 100 ft then take the 100' AOW training , no matter how much of a joke it may be for some, Its a hoop you need to jump through. [/QUOTE]

AOW is only a hoop if it is required by the instructor for continued training or by a dive op for them to let you dive a particular site. Neither one has to require one complete AOW. Although I did pick up AOW rather recently in my diving as a preventative for such an occation, I have never had to show a card, other than my OW.

The blanket legalistic course description does not even acknoledge a 130" limit to the training or recreational diving.

Because they avoid mention recreational limits, does not mean they do not exist. It is in their best interest to avoid the conversation as they are not properly preparing, IMHO, the diver to dive in the range he for which is certified.

I have been on trips where the brief I once got was . Max depth for the all was 130 ft. Exceed it and you sit out the rest of the day. Would you call that a statement of permitted depth for all divers or a statement of consequence for violators of rec depth limits even if you held a tech card for deeper depths?

I'd say dive op rules, they could have, as easily, said 100'. However, I would say they were enforcing recreational limits for insurance purposes.



Bob
-------------------------

That's my point, people, by and large, are not taught that diving can be deadly, they are taught how safe it is, and they are not equipped with the skills, taught and trained to the level required to be useful in an emergency.

"the future is uncertain and the end is always near"
Jim Morrison

 

[NAM001]

My problem with the practice is that you recieve the cert after part 1, and never have to take parts 2 - 6. Kind of like taking a cavern course and being given a full cave cert.

I agree





If the Limit was 60' they would have no more liability than it being within recreational limits as it is now. You were trained for the cert, it is not on the agency if you F up and forget your training.

I think that is all in how one looks at it.

RSTC

My red highlight.
Recreational diving limit is, at this time, agreed upon to be 130'.


If you want to dive to 100 ft then take the 100' AOW training , no matter how much of a joke it may be for some, Its a hoop you need to jump through.

AOW is only a hoop if it is required by the instructor for continued training or by a dive op for them to let you dive a particular site. Neither one has to require one complete AOW. Although I did pick up AOW rather recently in my diving as a preventative for such an occation, I have never had to show a card, other than my OW.





Because they avoid mention recreational limits, does not mean they do not exist. It is in their best interest to avoid the conversation as they are not properly preparing, IMHO, the diver to dive in the range he for which is certified.

That same logic should also apply to the recommended 60' limit




I'd say dive op rules, they could have, as easily, said 100'. However, I would say they were enforcing recreational limits for insurance purposes.

Their insurance purposes not the divers




Bob
-------------------------


"the future is uncertain and the end is always near"
Jim Morrison[/QUOTE]

---------- Post added July 27th, 2014 at 07:53 AM ----------

I was just reading the OW training book i aquired from a recent course. In the back of the book section 5. I read learning objectives. #1 is about the course evaluation. #2 is What are my limits as a PADI Open water diver. The same page has this nice picture of the water column and a line across the middle ,, above it says 60' OPEN WATER DIVER LIMIT. below it says 130'
recreational diving limit. The paragraph the goes with the icture says You liearned about teh limits recommended for you as a newly certified OWD. Then a review of the limits . 60' max or the max depth your training took you to. Then it continues with with further EXPERIENCE AND TRAIING BEYOND owd THE MAX DEPTH FOR REC DIVING ISN130'. gOES ON TO COVER no stop limits of the tables or computer. Finally it says ultimately teh divers responsibiility to set their own limits for each dive based on comfort skills and dive conditions. All this applies to the diver upon completion fo the training not while in training.

 

[dead dog]

There are no scuba police. Most of the enforcement of limits that I have seen over the last nine years, where there has been ANY, has been from dive operators who will limit the dives you are allowed to do, based on what training you can prove you have had. In Indonesia, we were limited to 80 foot dives because I hadn't brought my Deep specialty card. It didn't matter; there was nothing in the next 20 feet that was really different from where we already were!

Recommendations are just that. We tell our students they are certified to dive in conditions similar to, or better than the ones in which they got certified. That means they shouldn't take off for the depths, or jump into a high current drift dive, the day after they finish with us. But six months later, things may be quite different; a diver who has been diving actively here can easily log 50 or more dives in that time, and would you still think it reasonable to try to limit that diver to the 45 feet he managed in OW class?

How do they ( dive operators ) know how deep you have gone ?
What I see is fewer people telling more people what to do, just like our government.

Bill
dead dog

 

[NAM001]

When you get on the boat you tell them your max depth for that dive and how much air left in the tank. some check the dive computer.
For the boat operators this is not nanyism. they are tracking your diving to see if you could be come hurt by exceeding the dive plan for the trip. The other is they are tracking how much air you have left when you dont come up when they expect you to. The boats i have used have a chart and they track your dive time depth and remaining air. They adjust the SI accordingly and all has a good time. You can lie about it but you only harm your self. When the trip is 2 days adn 8 dives there is nothing to gain by lying. They do say that if you pass 130 the first day you are done for that day or you pass up the next dive for the added SI. The next day limit is 100. They go to the deeper site the first day and a shallower site the second I have never had NDL issues diving with them. I have even done a 3 day with them and did 5,5,3 dives.

How do they ( dive operators ) know how deep you have gone ?
What I see is fewer people telling more people what to do, just like our government.

Bill
dead dog