Appropriate No of Logged dives to become a DM/instructor

[Searcaigh]

You start with a basic card certifying you in the type of environment where the majority of your dives are completed as well as the general area or your cert. All should be in the sea not in a quarry. Thus if you qualify at an LDS in the Pacific Northwest and want to go to the Maldives for instance then you need, a further cert for warm water. From the Maldives to say Mexico, then you need and area cert to qualify you for the local conditions and environment.

I like this idea, it also fits into the concept of the Reef Check programme, you get certified for the area that you have studied for. The card should be one card and updated accordingly showing all areas it covers.

I would also suggest keeping the quarry certification, some DMs may never dive anywhere else

I'd also like to see the Master Scuba Diver card changed, from one you can buy (by doing specialities) to one that requires validated logged dives per annum and well as an entry level of dives /time

Thoughts on the above?

That is also a good idea

 

[boulderjohn]

I'd also like to see the Master Scuba Diver card changed, from one you can buy (by doing specialities) to one that requires validated logged dives per annum and well as an entry level of dives /time

Thoughts on the above?

Please describe the process you envision for this. IN your description, please include the following points:

1. How do you validate the logged dives?

2. What does "an entry level of dives/time" mean?

3. How does the person apply for the annual renewal?

4. How much would it cost for the individual to get renewed?

5. How much would it cost the scuba agency for the staff to review the information sent in and check the validation of each logged dive to make sure it meets the required minimum?

6. What kind of an appeal process would be required in case the agency disputes the validation of one or more of the submitted dives?

7. Who should bear the cost of that appeal?

8. Since the Master Diver certification contains no value (except in rare cases) and serves only as an incentive to get more training, why would anyone want to go through the process of renewing it annually?

9. Since the Master Diver certification contains no value (except in rare cases) and serves only as an incentive to get more training, why would anyone care if your certification is up to date?

10. Since the Master Diver certification contains no value (except in rare cases) and serves only as an incentive to get more training, why would an agency want to do this?

11. Since the Master Diver certification contains no value (except in rare cases) and serves only as an incentive to get more training, how would this requirement serve as an incentive to get more training?

 

[TMHeimer]

RJP, I pretty much agree with your several posts here. One thing to consider though about the instructor who has hundreds of same quarry dives and teaches there-- That wouldn't really affect how well he teaches the skills would it? So the students come out of there with good skills and dive habits and then go to the ocean with no idea about what could happen there. Kind of like now you got your drivers license on city streets, so you can jump on the interstate. In the quarry situation the instructor is obviously very lacking in his own diving experience, but if he had dived all over the world would it change how he taught the skills in the quarry? Obviously he could verbally give a lot more varied advice.

 

[Diving Dubai]

With regard to BoulderJohn's post as well as adding my input to others.

Perhaps the PADI certification process needs a bit of an overhaul with regard to progress in certifications. - begin the OP I'll widen it up a little

Thus if you gain your OW in a quarry you need an addition certification (which may be 4 guided dives with an Instructor as part of your vacation etc) to gain a "sea/salt or tidal" check out - to be added to your card.

From OW to AOW then perhaps there should be a 6 month or 30 dive period (which ever is the longest) prior to begin able to take the qualification

From AOW to Rescue perhaps a further 50 dives or 1 year - which ever is the longest

Nitro should IMHO be part of either OW or AOW not a separate cert although I appreciate you can take it as an AOW skill. Buoyancy skills should be mandatory as AoW i.e. holding say +/- 0.5m over 10 mins??

(the precise numbers are debatable I've used them as an example)

For Master Scuba Diver - it should mean a Master not someone who has brought is with skills cards, so lets say an addition 50 dives or 1 year which ever is the longest - personally I'd have some more but I need to take account of those who have limited dive seasons

The MASTER SCUBA should be the pinnacle of the recreational diver, not only requiring dives but some specialist skills (of decent difficulty)

DM - once you have Master:- At the invite of an LDS or instructor or applied for but subject to peer review of your diving skills and ability as well as some presentation and communication skills. To retain the DM you would need say 10 weekends per annum working in a position of renumeration (whether cash or payment in kind of discounts on diving /equipment etc) and a certain number of dives in this position. This would be as part of a recognised club/LDS/resort/boat etc...

if you were a cold water quarry DM you'd need an addition cert for cold water sea or warm tropical sea (and vis versa) for example.

Dive validation:- on presentation of a logbook - electronic or otherwise should dive computer data (written log book only for OW to AoW) a computer record of the dives is better than the log book only where we all know some people just add in a bunch of 20'/20min dives (or what ever the minimum is to be classed as a dive) There should be a requirement for a certain number to be of a certain length and certain depth - perhaps even a certain SAC rate too??? Costs for the dive validation born on the cert or re cert fees

Instructor...say 3 years as a DM with a further 200 dives?

DM and instructor should bear a cost penality that would discourage someone for holding one for Kudos or ego but be financially affordable to clubs/LDS etc "employing" them

I reiterate the DM and above should be for professionals only rather than any old tom dick and Harry

All numbers are a guide and there should be the ability to have exceptions say someone like Dave Shaw he maybe might be certified by the manufacture of the equipment of someone else in his field of speciality where his knowledge and skills are greater than his dive list might show...


Once more these are thoughts and open to debate and correction. I don't claim to have all the answers but feel this topic raises some worthy points within its discussion (and has so far stayed on track!!!)

 

[Hawkwood]

Never would have bothered to have gone past OW in your scenario.

 

[boulderjohn]

For some reason I am reminded of the time two years ago I was hired to be an expert resource for students in a graduate school class earning about online education. They had to provide solutions to problems, and one of the groups had to solve the problem that many people hired to teach online education classes do not have the training necessary to teach in that medium, and people who are so trained are too hard to find to make it a hiring requirement. How can an online education provider/school ensure that the teachers they employ have the necessary skills?

The group came up with an elaborate training system that took an entire year to complete. New hires would have the best possible qualifications, be the cream potential crop. They would then be trainees doing little more than learn how to do the task for an entire year. Veteran teachers would serve as Mentors to these new teachers in addition to teaching their classes. Well, that would certainly create some top quality teachers, but I had some questions. 1) So you would hire the very best candidates available, the ones everyone wants to hire, but you would not pay them for a year? You are inviting them to join your company or school with no pay? (Um, now that we think about it, we would have to pay them a salary.) 2) So the company would pay a full salary for a year to employees who do not work for them? (Yes.) 3) So companies would have trainers on their payroll who would do nothing all year long but train new employees? (Yes--and the Mentor teachers would help.) 4. So would the Mentor teachers be paid more for that work, teach fewer classes, or just volunteer to do it for free in their spare time? (Um--any one of those choices.) 5) Any thoughts on how much money that would cost the company/school? (What difference does that make?)

I suggested that they consider the practical consequences of their plan. A solution to a problem needs to be realistic in terms of financial resources, and it needs to be proportional to the problem being solved. While the solution they offered would make for excellent online teachers, it was totally out of proportion to the actual training need, and its cost would be so ridiculously high that no sane school or company would even consider it for a minute.

So, when I read about an incredibly elaborate plan to "improve" scuba instruction, I have the same reaction.

What is the problem being addressed? Can you go through each of the proposed solutions and explain why it is so important that the change be made? For example, when we read through the annual DAN fatality report, is there an inordinate number of cases of people who learn to dive in inland lakes dying when they find themselves in salt water instead of fresh water? Are people with supposedly substandard Master Scuba Diver credentials dying as a result of carrying a card in their wallet (that no one asks to see) that suggests more skills than they actually have?

Is the proposed solution proportional to the problem? Once you have identified the level of the problem to be solved, define the importance of that problem before proposing a proportional solution. For example, inland DMs primarily carry tanks and watch students in a swimming pol or lake to make sure they don't drown while the instructor is working with them. Are god-like diving skills really necessary for that task? Does it really take decades of experience and training to be able to show students how to do basic OW dives like clearing a mask?

What is the financial impact of your solution? What will the costs be for the agency? The diver? Will anyone be willing to pay those costs to achieve that solution? If not, is it your belief that only a tiny handful of the most elite and wealthy people around the world should be allowed to dive? If so, where and how will they dive when all the equipment manufacturers, local dive shops, and resort area dive operations that depend upon volume sales for their livelihood go out of business?

I became a DM about 10 years ago, and an instructor not long after that. I am a pretty avid diver with what most people would consider a lot of experience in a lot of places. My students are very pleased with the results, and the feedback I get after they have been diving is very positive. I find it hard to believe that people think I am still not yet worthy of hanging around behind an instructor and making sure none of the students drown.

 

[Bob DBF]

With regard to BoulderJohn's post as well as adding my input to others.

Perhaps the PADI certification process needs a bit of an overhaul with regard to progress in certifications. - begin the OP I'll widen it up a little

Thus if you gain your OW in a quarry you need an addition certification (which may be 4 guided dives with an Instructor as part of your vacation etc) to gain a "sea/salt or tidal" check out - to be added to your card.

From OW to AOW then perhaps there should be a 6 month or 30 dive period (which ever is the longest) prior to begin able to take the qualification

From AOW to Rescue perhaps a further 50 dives or 1 year - which ever is the longest

Nitro should IMHO be part of either OW or AOW not a separate cert although I appreciate you can take it as an AOW skill. Buoyancy skills should be mandatory as AoW i.e. holding say +/- 0.5m over 10 mins??

(the precise numbers are debatable I've used them as an example)

For Master Scuba Diver - it should mean a Master not someone who has brought is with skills cards, so lets say an addition 50 dives or 1 year which ever is the longest - personally I'd have some more but I need to take account of those who have limited dive seasons

The MASTER SCUBA should be the pinnacle of the recreational diver, not only requiring dives but some specialist skills (of decent difficulty)

I agree that the PADI, and many others, needs an overhaul however, withholding training when all the skills in the mentioned certs, save MSD, should be a part of the OW class. The problem in dive training is not the student, but the system and "dive professionals" that have consistently lowered the bar to certify an OW diver, with the promise of knowledge and skills in the next class. Similar to certifying someone to shoot a gun and letting them know they can come back and pay for the class on range safety later.

Not only do I agree with Hawkwood "Never would have bothered to have gone past OW in your scenario.", I might have foregone OW and continued to dive with School of Dad training and the specialties I learned from other divers.



Bob
-------------------------------
Dove when an OW diver was not a slur on ones skills.

 

[RJP]

Obviously he could verbally give a lot more varied advice.

Certainly such an instructor can teach all the skills, but his advice can really only be as varied as his experience.

That being said, my main point was that if someone's going to start to put "more rigorous" criteria in place for instructors, it's more likely than not that you'll still have plenty of people with limited experience who meet such criteria... and highly likely that you'll exclude people who are actually more qualified than the hothouse flower variety of instructor/DM.

 

[DevonDiver]

I see an over-fixation on cold water versus warm water.

PADI, and other agencies, already have sufficient standards and recommendations that cover diving in different environments. i.e. PADI Safe Diving Practices;

"If diving conditions are worse than those in which I am experienced, postpone diving or select an alternate site with better conditions. Engage only in diving activities consistent with my training and experience".

There is simply no need to differentiate between environments on a certification card. There is simply a need to apply the standards and recommendations that already exist.... and recognition that professional-level divers are not immune from those recommendations (indeed - they are more 'bound' to them, as Pro membership dictates adherence to those Safe Diving Practices).

 

[boulderjohn]

Another thought for those who want to make scuba instruction, especially after the OW level, much harder to get and much more expensive:

There is another thread going on right now about a father and son who found training as it is now to be too expensive: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/472730-deaths-eagles-nest-homosassa-fl.html

Because of that, they trained themselves. The father found other ways to save money, too, including not having insurance. If you would like to help, the rest of the family is looking for donations to help pay for their funerals and burials.