Appropriate No of Logged dives to become a DM/instructor

[RJP]

200 for taking DM course seems a good number. Ideally, I like 1,000 for Instructor course...

In such numbers, would you include training/course dives? What qualitative factors would you use to count dives? Would quarry dives count? Even 200 25min quarry dives that consisted of merely following ropes and lines from platform to platform and doing skills and drills?

There are more than a few instructors and DM's here on SB who talk a good game, decry low standards and inexperienced DMs and instructors, and seem to have a good following. But when you look at their dive counts and watch what they post about and when... it appears as if the vast majority of their diving experience consists of nothing but teaching classes every weekend, usually in the same quarry. Maybe a warm water trip every few years, or a jaunt to a different quarry to take/give a class there. I don't care how great someone's OW or AOW class is, or how rigorous their approach is, or how many dives they think SOMEONE ELSE should have before they can be an instructor or DM. If all they ever really do is lead classes in the same quarry, I don't think their dive count - however high - is particularly meaningful, nor is their overall experience particularly compelling or relevant outside that quarry or class setting.

---------- Post added December 28th, 2013 at 02:57 AM ----------

You were certainly not the norm, at 150 dives.

Oh, trust me... the list of ways in which I'm not normal is extensive.

:d

 

[Diving Dubai]

As the OP I wanted to see how the discussion progressed prior to giving my input.

I'm glad the consensus thus far indicates that most people believe that the requirement for a greater level of experience. I don't want to get hung up on dive numbers. As stated by others its overall experience that has to count.

As others have stated their should be a minimum number of unsupervised dives (indeed these should be the majority) as a start you would want the starting point to be obtainable - so 1000 dives clearly isn't for most. Lets open the bidding at say 2000 to start and 250 to qualify, perhaps there should be a caveat that a certain amount should have been in the last year (say 50)?

What's important (in my eyes at least) is the DM card is put forward as the first level of professional qualification. Okay then with that in mind, make it professional.

You start with a basic card certifying you in the type of environment where the majority of your dives are completed as well as the general area or your cert. All should be in the sea not in a quarry. Thus if you qualify at an LDS in the Pacific Northwest and want to go to the Maldives for instance then you need, a further cert for warm water. From the Maldives to say Mexico, then you need and area cert to qualify you for the local conditions and environment.

Further more as this is a pro card, you need to remain current with say 200 dives per year (something you'd only achieve by begin a DM) Also you would need to pay money each year for a revert and to remain professional and register as well as carrying insurance? A DM card shouldn't be something you wave about as a status symbol it should mean that you are a working dive Pro?

I'd also like to see the Master Scuba Diver card changed, from one you can buy (by doing specialities) to one that requires validated logged dives per annum and well as an entry level of dives /time

Thoughts on the above?

 

[drrich2]

Out of curiosity, let's say you raised the minimum # of dives to start Dive Master training to, oh, say, 120? Double the current standard. How many people would get those dives in a variety of challenging conditions to grow as divers, and how many would go to Bonaire, or a charter boat in the Florida Keys, or a couple of live-aboards, or just the local quarry, and rack up the required # (assuming they didn't just lie in their log books, assuming they keep log books) doing large #'s of the same kinds of fairly easy dives?

What I've observed in the mental health field is that regulations largely mandate the creation of documentation/paper trails. But it's hard to legislate an attitude/mentality.

Richard.

 

[Tigerman]

Or how many would just do 2 weeks in asia doing back to back 20 minute dives to pad the logbook to 120 instead of 60?

 

[willknock]

I've met a DM who did all of his dives and training in a lake and a quarry, but then they're also the only two sites he ever dived because that's what he enjoyed - so perfectly reasonable, but not someone you'd want to rely on in open water perhaps... I've also trained with guys who were "suggested" by their instructor to start DM training after 20 dives, the only reasons I can see is that he got them to spend money and used them as free assistants labelling them as DMC's (candidates) as if that had a bearing on their status and ability.

As has been said, very difficult thing to quantify in numbers of dives, but maybe the idea of minimum dives per year is a starter, assuming they aren't made up in log books or all done in a 2 week holiday period each year?

 

[Pullmyfinger]

I'd also like to see the Master Scuba Diver card changed, from one you can buy (by doing specialities) to one that requires validated logged dives per annum and well as an entry level of dives /time

Thoughts on the above?

Don't touch that one around this forum!
You're better off pissing on an electric fence.


---------- Post added December 28th, 2013 at 05:22 AM ----------

But it's hard to legislate an attitude/mentality.

Richard.

"Attitude/mentality" in regards to training, course progression, and minimum requirements appears to be firmly entrenched in the diving industry.

I would imagine it is pretty common for OW and "Advanced" Open Water students to be given the DM sales pitch.

 

[RJP]

Further more as this is a pro card, you need to remain current with say 200 dives per year (something you'd only achieve by begin a DM) Also you would need to pay money each year for a revert and to remain professional and register as well as carrying insurance?

Well, the second part of your suggestion (annual renewal, fee, insurance) is all in place currently. You also need to retake EFR every two years. The shop that I DM for also requires current DAN O2 provider status, and puts all staff through a "rescue weekend" at our local training quarry each spring, wherein we go through the various scenario is from the Rescue Diver course. Lots of fun when the water is in the 38-39F range.

As to 200 dives/year to remain "current" I think that's a bit unreasonable. If, as part if that 200, you're willing to count training dives (where the DM kneels on a platform watching an instructor kneeling on a platform watching a student kneeling on a platform clear his mask) then it goes from an unreasonable requirement to a meaningless one.

I do like the idea of some requirement to be a current/active diver, but 200/yr would be nearly impossible for anyone who was not a full-time DM in a warm water resort location to achieve. (Such a DM would so easily achieve 200 that it's immaterial.) Here in NJ, where I DM, being a DM is a part time gig. I couldn't do 200 dives a year. Assuming a reasonable dive season of Easter-Thanksgiving (Aoril-November) I would end to do 25 dives a month. That'd be 5-6 dives per weekend, every weekend, for eight months as I (and every other DM around here) have a full time job five days a week. Even 100 per year where I'm located would be unreasonable for most folks. I happen to hit that number often, but it manage to get a 25-30dive liveaboard trip in each year.

Not sure what the official "keep current" dive number should be.

---------- Post added December 28th, 2013 at 10:05 AM ----------

I would imagine it is pretty common for OW and "Advanced" Open Water students to be given the DM sales pitch.

Can't speak about other shops, but where I'm located the DM class is typically only offered upon request of the student. And most who request it are told they are not ready. Those who are not considered folks that the shop would bring on as DM even if they did complete the course are typically told this. At the shop where I DM, I think you could say that the DM course is offered "by invitation only" to folks we know and want. This is based largely on attitude and commitment to local diving and a desire to work with students. If you have those, we'll work with you on skills and experience.

If someone we don't know shows up out of the blue asking for a DM course, they will be given a pretty thorough dive skill evaluation before agreeing to offer the course.

 

[DivemasterDennis]

I like Boulder John's comment, and agree with it. I do think a divemaster candidate should have 60 dive minimum prior to beginning the DM class, and the instructor candidate should have 100 dives before beginning the instructor class. Some people have the experience of 60 dives and some people have the experience of one dive repeated 60 times. Demonstration of mastery of basic skills and safe diving practices is what is important to me in a candidate for a professional credential. I received mine more than 13 years and hundreds and hundreds of dives ago. By the way, I am STILL learning, as are all good DM's and instructors.
DivemasterDennis

 

[boulderjohn]

Just a few random thoughts....

When David Shaw died, he was doing an incredibly advanced dive for which he was the only diver on the planet with the appropriate training and experience. If I recall correctly, it was his 336th logged dive.

In a thread a couple of years ago, a woman who was participating had been diving for 20 years and had accumulated well over 200 dives. All of them were off of cruise ships in warm water areas. Every one was DM led and shallower than 60 feet.

DMs do more than lead dives. They also assist in classes. In inland areas such as where I live, DMs fulfill an important need by assisting the instructor in the pool and in OW sessions. Living inland as they do in a place where the water gets very cold in the winter, it would be close to impossible for even the most active and skilled DM to log anywhere close to 200 dives per year. I doubt if there can possibly be more than a few divers--DMs, instructors, or anyone--not living next to an ocean who logs anything close to that. The only exceptions might be an occasional dive shop employee who specializes in leading group trips year round.

I am a technical diver fully certified to dive beyond 300 feet on helium mixes. I am full cave certified. I have logged quite a few cave dives past full cave certification. I am certified to use a scooter in caves, something you are not allowed to do until you have successfully logged at least 50 cave dives after certification and demonstrated sufficient skills. I do not yet have 1,000 logged dives. I do, however, have many more logged dives than most of the technical divers with whom I trained.

Any idea how an agency could verify that everyone who has a DM certification from them has logged the correct number of dives in a year? Any idea what it would cost to even try to implement such an oversight system?​

Make of these thoughts what you will.

 

[maniago]

Being a teacher myself, I of course agree that knowing how to do something and being able to teach it are two vastly different things!

In addition to that, do you WANT to teach? Are you a "people person"? A nice guy or gal (all the time), even when your students are doing "stupid" things? Even when they are annoying you? Or others? Or wildlife? Are you good at sensing what information / skill your particular student needs (and can absorb) at that particular time? Do you LIKE doing that?

+1 for being a teacher already or at least knowing you like to teach people. Please don't become an instructor just to get more personal diving. Teaching is not about the teacher - ever. Its about the student. But this thread is about experience. And since noone can measure someone elses experiences, dive count is the easiest. I'd say 100 is probably a better number for DM, and then 2 yrs DMing before instructor. But that's just my .02.