Appropriate No of Logged dives to become a DM/instructor

[Jim Lapenta]

Agree with Bob above on some points. DM's should not be slave labor. They also should not be sold a class. They should be selected for it. Skills should be nailed before they are even allowed to start. Excellent skills should be the norm for starting DM.

In the DM class you just do a little polishing of the diamond when it comes to skills. It has already been cut. You don't start with a lump of coal that the diamond comes from.

I personally feel a DM needs to have a tech class or two before getting the DM cert. Even if it's an Intro to Tech to teach them how to properly plan a dive. Seen a whole bunch of DM's who couldn't plan how to get into the water without serious problems.

And it depends on the agency. I was not allowed to conduct classroom or pool sessions as a DM under PADI. When I crossed over to the YMCA/NAUI (had my choice to do either at the time) my first assignment was to prepare a lecture for the next OW class and after critique by the instructor, deliver it to actual students. As a DMC. Then I had to conduct the swim and skin diving tests and demo what I wanted them to do.

Had to deliver pool side lectures, full classroom lectures, demo skills, and basically be prepared to take over for the instructor at any time. I see instructors now who have a card that says OW Instructor but they can't or are not trusted to teach a class on their own. Why the hell do they have an instructor card? They shouldn't if they don't feel they can or the shop feels they cannot.

I passed my instructor exam on a Sunday. On Wednesday I was given my first group of students and told to teach them to dive. The only other instructions I was given was lock the shop when I left. Then the instructor/owner left. And I felt fully prepared to do it. If I had not I should not have been given a card.

My IDC, if you want to call it that, was 6 + months long. It prepared me to teach by actually teaching. It seems like many IDC's teach people how to pass a damn test. And not how to really teach.

 

[Peter Guy]

Andy -- I'm quite sure that when Lynne (TSandM) wrote "skills assessment" she meant a totality of diving skills which includes the individual skills. I absolutely agree with her that the agencies should require the instructors to be trained to, AND DIVING AT, a level above where they are teaching. Interestingly, to get my PADI Tec Instructor card (Tec 40) I had to show that I was trained to, and diving at, at least the Tec 45 level -- so it is a concept of which PADI is aware!

To go back to the OP -- yes, the standards are, in my opinion, too low today.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

Before I start this thread is in now way meant to be disrespectful to Candidate DM’s, Qualified DM’s and Instructors.


My question is this. Is 60 logged dives prior to qualification of a DM and or 100 logged dives for an Instructor – an appropriate experience level? (PADI)

In my opinion, I don't feel that 60 dives is enough to be pursuing a Dive Master program. There's no way you can have experience in a variety of diving conditions with only 60 dives. At 60 dives, I was still a beginner myself.....I can't imagine wanting to be responsible for other divers, with a mere 60 dives.

I would imagine that with only 60 dives, many of those dives would have been completed, while taking the prerequisite courses....so those dives wouldn't count (IMO), because they were under the supervision of an Instructor, while that diver was a student. With only 60 dives....a large percentage of them were not actual dives, but training dives.

Rather than taking a DM course, with only 60 dives, just because some agency says that you can.....I think you should check yourself, and take it only after you know that you have more substantial, and varied experience.

A DM student with only 60 dives.....is a joke.

Cheers,Mitch

---------- Post added December 26th, 2013 at 05:00 PM ----------

I personally feel a DM needs to have a tech class or two before getting the DM cert. Even if it's an Intro to Tech to teach them how to properly plan a dive. Seen a whole bunch of DM's who couldn't plan how to get into the water without serious problems.

I agree with you......I set that as my personal standard.

But making that an official standard would significantly cut down on the number of DM classes that could be sold. The dive industry isn't going to shoot themselves in the foot.

 

[billt4sf]

Being a teacher myself, I of course agree that knowing how to do something and being able to teach it are two vastly different things!

In addition to that, do you WANT to teach? Are you a "people person"? A nice guy or gal (all the time), even when your students are doing "stupid" things? Even when they are annoying you? Or others? Or wildlife? Are you good at sensing what information / skill your particular student needs (and can absorb) at that particular time? Do you LIKE doing that?

And, would you be good at all the above when safety is a consideration?

I truly think that the most important consideration, especially for teaching diving, is people skills (maybe we should call it "liking people interaction" since, to some extent, it seems to be more of a fact of one's personality than a skill you can learn).

- Bill

---------- Post added December 26th, 2013 at 05:31 PM ----------

Those who have been enough places and tried enough things to have a balanced and philosophical approach, as well as absolutely solid skills, should be the teachers.

I would modify this to say that A PORTION OF Those who have been enough places and tried enough things to have a balanced and philosophical approach, as well as absolutely solid skills, should be the teachers.

I.e. that portion that has the requisite people skills.

- Bill

 

[bakodiver391]

There is also the phenomena of divers thinking they are bullet proof after a couple of hundred dives, then learning different (or not) with more experience. We see this a lot with young DMs sneaking off to do crazy bounce dives on single AL80s, and killing or maiming themselves in the process. Pros should be mature and experienced enough to be past this phase, typically around 3 or 400 varied dives. There is also a lot more to being a DM than simply the mechanics of doing a dive. It's about giving your clients the most bang for their buck, based on their stated objectives. The difference between a very experienced and a new DM diving the same site is night and day.

 

[drrich2]

Just a diver here, not a dive professional. A few thoughts:

1.) Judging from forum posts, a # of people pursue DM with goals more in line for what someone might pursue the NAUI Master Scuba Diver program, or a GUE Fundies course; a desire to grow & progress as a diver, rather than to teach or aid in teaching classes. One could argue 'well, you're in the wrong course,' and there are threads on this forum asking & debating that very issue.

2.) To me, a minimum isn't necessarily what's right for the majority. Like the debates over whether a 10 year old is suitable for basic OW certification. A forum consensus seems to be 'a minority, but not most.'

So, a candidate of great aptitude (let's say in the top 10% of the DM class in terms of personality, attitude, and aptitude for catching on to & mastering both scuba & teaching skills), who will be teaching basic OW courses to the agency minimum standards (but let's say does so competently), in local conditions that are very benign (warm, high viz., negligible current, hard bottom, modest depth, predictably sound weather conditions) and will be working with 'normal' students (not young children, markedly handicapped, etc...) for awhile, while he builds experience...

To me, that's the sort of scenario to judge a minimum # of required dives by. The best applicants training only mainstream students to the lowest acceptable level, then growing from there as they gain additional experience.

I'm not arguing it's optimal. Perhaps sometimes it's good enough?

Richard.

 

[DevonDiver]

I personally feel a DM needs to have a tech class or two before getting the DM cert. Even if it's an Intro to Tech to teach them how to properly plan a dive. Seen a whole bunch of DM's who couldn't plan how to get into the water without serious problems.

Personally, I don't think tech should ever be a prerequisite for anything recreational. Tech diving shouldn't be something that a diver should ever feel 'forced' to undertake, neither should it be something that becomes exposed to commercial pressures (being pro-actively sold to the wrong people, for the wrong reasons and the wrong times).

Core Diving Skills Assessment as a Prerequisite

That said, there are individual elements withing technical diving training that may represent critical competencies for a recreational-level professional. I see no reason why those competencies couldn't be identified and then replicated as performance standards within DM training. For instance, the following are assessed tech skills that could easily be translated to recreational performance standards:

• Precision buoyancy and trim assessments (e.g. +/- 50cm in flat, horizontal trim for 10 minutes)
• Propulsion and control techniques (e.g. non-silting fin kicks, helicopter turn, back-kick)
• DSMB (e.g. deploy DSMB on ascent within 1 minute)
• Gas Management (e.g. SAC/RMV calculation, dive planning to include consumption, variable reserve strategies, use of redundant air sources)
• Situational Awareness (e.g. continual awareness and accurate prediction of gas, depth, time, NDL, team etc)
• Precision Dive Profiling (e.g. planning and following a dive plan/run-time with precision and accuracy; descent, multi-level and ascent with stops)

In essence, you have a 'fundies-like' assessment process (recreation 'pass' level). Passing the assessment would require significant preparation and rehearsal on behalf of the student - thus encouraging any diver with a goal to become a divemaster to recognize the importance of continual practice and development as a pre-cursor to supervisory level diving training.

There should be a 'gateway' to professional diving levels. That gateway should assess against foundational level skills.

Definitions of Competency and Performance

The term 'Expertise' should replace 'Mastery' in professional level diving assessments of performance standards. The definition of 'expertise' should be clearly of much higher standard than that for 'mastery'. It should reflect exemplary role-model skills, knowledge and behavior of above-average performance. Such a definition should be immune to mis-translation that enables a lower level of competency to be accepted (i.e. no sloppy, vague terms like "...as expected of a diver at this level").

Equipment Requirements

This can be coupled with certain equipment requirements. I'm not talking 'DIR'. Equipment requirements should simply demand that the DM should have a well conceived rig that adheres to sound principles regarding streamlining, entanglement avoidance, accessibility of equipment etc... it should also demand appropriate redundancy of life-support items within reasonable parameters - i.e. use of pony cylinder for deep dives or overhead environment, spare mask etc. This redundancy takes into account the supervisory nature of the diver and extends beyond merely satisfying 'self-reliance' - although the DM should be more 'self-reliant' for personal safety when diving with unknown team/buddies.

Specialty Activities/Environment Specificity

DM qualification should come with caveats against entry into overhead environments and deep (30m/100ft +) diving when supervising. Higher level or specific supplementary qualification should be created to cover these situations. Open-Water Divemaster training doesn't supply what is necessary for safe deep-water, wreck or cavern penetration Divemaster duties.

I see no reason why DM cannot progress through a series of levels in the same way that non-professionals do, or match 'specialty supervisory' training against the dive activities/environments they are qualified to work within.

This also provides a stepped progression towards eventual 'specialty instructor' qualifications - where that instructor has received prior training at diver then at divemaster level in specialty environments/activities.

Instructor Requirements for Training and Certification of Divemasters

The level of instructor rating needed to train and/or qualify Divemasters should be raised. In PADI, it should (ideally IMHO) be 'Staff Instructor' - recognizing that substantial instructor experience is necessary to effectively train and assess pro-level candidates. The current system (PADI), where a freshly qualified OWSI can walk out of an Instructor Exam and immediately start teaching/qualifying divemasters is nothing short of absurd and inexcusable.

This would also give the 'Staff Instructor' rating some genuine meaning and usefulness, which it currently does not hold... as very, very few people do stand-alone AI courses nowadays (which is all S.I. permits..). It's just a meaningless 'springboard' towards M.I. (itself meaningless) and consideration for a Course Director invite...

Probationary Status and Quality Assurance

Newly qualified Divemasters should undertake a period of probationary status; possibly a 12 month period. During this time, they should be further (in-directly) supervised and mentored by instructors. Instructors should continue writing performance evaluations on the probationary DMs. These should be stored by the dive operations employing the DM - for retrieval if QA issues arise.

Needless to say, DMs should fall within the remit of agency QA processes - whereby customer divers and/or observing dive professionals can report them for breaking standards (that don't currently exist) for instructional-assistant and dive supervisor duties. Those standards should reflect what is taught to divemasters in training.

The privilege of continued agency professional membership should be dependent on a/the Quality Assurance system; just as it is for instructors.

Divemaster Membership Standards

Divemasters should be directed by agency standards in the conduct of their duties. These standards (currently non-existent) should demand adherence to general safe diving practices and other prudent safety-orientated factors included within a DM-level professional membership agreement. Professional dive supervision should be a controlled, accountable activity. It currently isn''t.

 

[TMHeimer]

Lots of variables.

drrich2, Agree that less experience may be OK if a DM/Instructor is very familiar with local benign dive sites and does "normal" as you say students. Some people are very comfortable in water to begin with before becoming divers. As you say, certainly not an optimal situation. I guess you could say if there is no possibility of a ripping current at the site, there is no need for someone like myself who's been there.

bill4sf, Absolutely. Instructors and DMs need "people" skills. And must WANT to teach. As a former teacher myself, I didn't have the greatest people skills when I started and wasn't really sure I wanted to teach Band. I am proof that such skills can be developed, and I wound up enjoying my career. Only the candidates really knows such things about themselves. But of course, a candidate's present ability can be assessed. Success in teaching in general depends a lot on how students perceive you, at times regardless of how much you're thinking you like teaching or not.

Bob, Of course I agree about abolishing the free DM labour. That's one of my soap box topics. I would think DMs must do that themselves.
300 dives in last 3 years? The last 3 years I totalled just by chance exactly 200 dives. That's my most in a 3 yr. period over my 9 years diving. I'd never be a DM. Would guess a lot of people in various locales like here would be in the same boat. I try to dive about once weekly on average (same when I travel) and it of course varies re time of year. I dive when I can and it's practical. Plus, I'm retired with no day job like almost all of the Instructors & other DMs at the shop.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

60 - 100 is not enough IMHO and it also depends on diversity of conditions for those dives. I dive tropical waters as well as cold water with drysuit and those I find to be two different animals. If the goal is to be a DM for tropical waters then 60 - 100 dives may suffice but when we change diving conditions then the game changes big time. It took me a good 10 dives just to figure out my drysuit buoyancy and it felt like I was doing OW all over again. Besides the number of dives, I believe a DM should be logging experience in a variety of diving conditions like cold water, limited vis, strong current etc so diversity of experience should also be a pre-requisite for DM/Instructor training.

 

[DevonDiver]

60 - 100 is not enough IMHO and it also depends on diversity of conditions for those dives.

Diversity of diving, especially in regards to cold/warm water experience is immaterial. Why should someone born and raised in the tropics require the accumulation of cold water experience? And how would they attain it? This factor is something usually preserved for 'travelling' divers, normally originating from cold/temperate water locations, who have the luxury to travel and dive anywhere...

I'm more than happy with the concept of a warm-water diver excelling at providing professional DM services within the location/conditions of their expertise.

There are far more important factors, IMHO, than cold/warm water. The issue of cold/warm water ... and the general issue of regional and activity specific expertise/experience should be managed by caveats and standards post-certification as a divemaster. As in... you are only qualified to work as a divemaster with XXX experience gained under specific conditions and with adequate supplementary training at a supervisory level.

Yes, DMs shouldn't be able to hop on a plane to a different part of the world, with different conditions, demands and procedures, and leap straight into supervisory responsibilities. That doesn't impact upon their eligibility to begin DM training though..