Appropriate No of Logged dives to become a DM/instructor

[drbill]

Personally, I think the 60 dive minimum is a joke. I've had months where I've done 60-80 dives. I find it especially irritating when some newbie DM tells me what I can and can't do when they (and possibly their parents) weren't even born when I started diving! This is not intended to demean the many great dive professionals out there. I just think the qualifying standards are absurd.

 

[boulderjohn]

It has already been pointed out that the way the standards are written, the student in a DM class should not be certified until demonstrating the required skills (including diving skills) at an acceptable level, which makes the number of dives a mere technicality.

The factor that has not yet been discussed is employability. There seems to be an assumption that an unqualified diver will be out leading dives at a major dive operation the day after DM certification. After they have been certified, though, they have to get a job. I assume there might be employers out there who will hire just about anyone to work for them, but I have a hard time believing that with the known glut of DMs on the market, employers can't be pretty darn choosy about it. In almost every case I know of in resort situations I have experienced, the DM leading the dive is actually certified as an instructor. Yes, it is true in theory that someone with a minimal number of dives and a barely-made-it certification experience might be in a position of serious responsibility, but I don't think it happens often in reality.

In summary, the number of dives is not all that meaningful. The DM has to first be skilled enough to get the certification and then be skilled enough to get hired.

 

[DevonDiver]

It has already been pointed out that the way the standards are written, the student in a DM class should not be certified until demonstrating the required skills (including diving skills) at an acceptable level, which makes the number of dives a mere technicality.

....and in the real world....

“It is too difficult to think nobly when one thinks only of earning a living.”
― Jean-Jacques Rousseau

... a brand new OWSI can sign-off DMs to their heart's content based on the absolute minimum interpretation of standards backed-up with virtually zero personal experience; where the instructor themselves have 100 dives and has no clue about what a DM should look like. DM courses pay well,... but are time consuming... so the profit comes when you stack 'em high and rush them through...

So... we have standards that permit someone with 100 dives signing off someone else with 60 dives at a professional, supervisory level. As Dr.Bill states.... not two months worth of serious diving between the two of them... To think that doesn't happen frequently is naivety of the highest order.

In many parts of the world, it is quite standards practice to run zero-to-hero DM courses, within a set timescale (normally the shortest possible) and little/no consideration or understanding of the 'serious' competency needed for supervisory diving by either the instructor or DM candidate..

The factor that has not yet been discussed is employability.

It's been mentioned John. Employability is quite irrelevant - most DMs work for free and/or do some sort of post-qualification internship etc etc etc. For many, DM is just a step-stone to enrollment on IDC... or some beer money/lady-magnet for a year whilst travelling etc etc Spend a few weeks in Thailand and you'll see virtually every DM is some zilch-experienced back-packer who's been diving 2 months and just in it to get drunk and laid...

The whole concept of the 'employable Divemaster' is a myth, or at best an anachronism, for most of the world.

Yes... instructors are employable. Many of those nowadays step-stoned straight from DM without gaining further experience. And those willing to work for peanuts are the ones who get employed in most parts... experience has little to do with it.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

It has already been pointed out that the way the standards are written, the student in a DM class should not be certified until demonstrating the required skills (including diving skills) at an acceptable level, which makes the number of dives a mere technicality.

I sort of get your point on that. But actual diving experience isn't really a technicality, or at least it shouldn't be.
Let's not forget that this is all supposed to be about diving isn't it?

It shouldn't be just about a student that has merely demonstrated some skills. They should be bringing something to the table, in terms of experience. Instead, we get posts from guys, asking what kind of BC they should by, before their DM course?? seriously?? If you're looking to become a DM, you should be way beyond having to ask about what kind of BC to buy; perhaps they should have some actual experience diving some different ones, and from their actual diving experience, they would have seen more than their fair share of BCs in use by their dive buddies during their dives.

We all know what "demonstration of skills" and "mastery" looks like. It's doesn't take much actual diving experience at all, to be able to effectively demonstrate the required skills.

I don't agree that the number of dives, which demonstrates actual diving experience should be just a mere technicality.
The agency may state that the minimum is only 60.......but so what?.....it's up to the dive shops to implement it.
Maybe more of these divers that walk into dive shops with only 60 dives...should be told to go out and get more dives in.....a lot more, and then come back.

Meanwhile.....back in the real world.....that is never going to happen.

 

[100days-a-year]

1000 dives for instructor, 200 for DM as well as show proficiency in every aspect of diving they will be teaching.Some of the worst divers ever on my boat happened to be instructors or DMs,right behind knowitall gearhounds.Of course it lies with the certifying agency to insure they are represented by competent professionals... a few do.

 

[TMHeimer]

200 for taking DM course seems a good number. Ideally, I like 1,000 for Instructor course, but as I mentioned earlier, this would probably present problems in a lot of, or at least some areas. Getting to 1,000 dives will probably take me 17 years--IF at my age I keep up the current pace. I can't think of one of our 16 or so Instructors that doesn't have a day job. Because here, and I suspect in a lot of U.S. shops/areas, you can't make a living teaching scuba. Even if we had only a couple of Instructors, I doubt it's a living wage. So, how long does 1,000 dives take when you have a full time day job?

 

[100days-a-year]

I did 300+ a year while operating a wallpaper and paint company.3-6 per decent weekend and up to 100 on vaca.I don't consider many people with less than 5 years busy diving competent enough to dive on anything not a tropical charter much less teach others a skillset that has as serious consequences as scuba.

 

[TMHeimer]

I did 300+ a year while operating a wallpaper and paint company.3-6 per decent weekend and up to 100 on vaca.I don't consider many people with less than 5 years busy diving competent enough to dive on anything not a tropical charter much less teach others a skillset that has as serious consequences as scuba.

No point on us arguing really. I'm sure many have done what you've done. You have to consider though that you probably have a lot more decent weekends down there as well as a lot more interesting diving, which is also year round. And I could argue that a vacation long enough to get in 100 dives is probably beyond the financial and time limits for a lot of people. With your 300+ dives a year and work, did you have much time for anything else?

 

[RJP]

I did 300+ a year while operating a wallpaper and paint company.3-6 per decent weekend and up to 100 on vaca.I don't consider many people with less than 5 years busy diving competent enough to dive on anything not a tropical charter much less teach others a skillset that has as serious consequences as scuba.

Well, how would you compare your proposed 5-yr warm-water competent diver to a 2-year 150-dive diver with tech and overhead certs, who's 150 dives were predominantly deep, cold water wrecks... in terms of being a DM in NJ?

The answer goes beyond "there is no comparison" and in fact it really depends on the individual diver in question. At 150 dives I was a highly-trained, highly-competent tech diver. I had been in multiple situations where s**t hit the fan. I spent more than a year doing real DM internships with real classes and real students.

At the risk of being immodest - in the way that one may be permitted only with the benefit of hindsight - I was a far more skilled and competent diver and DM with my 150 dives and two years of experience than 90% of recreational divers that you'll encounter with >500 dives, most of whom wouldn't ever be sufficiently competent to be a DM or instructor.

In short, my 150 dives in two years is no more an arbitrarily insufficient number of dives than your 300yr for five years is an arbitrarily sufficient number of dives.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

You were certainly not the norm, at 150 dives.