Master Diver Certification

[Cetus]

I can't say I like the idea of kids and technical diving though.

I understand and have my own set of concerns. Technical diving is an overloaded name. Planning such dive helps kids with math, physics and biology. It was a very light technical dive, after all

I think you misunderstood what I meant by additional safety with regards to the EANx40 - I was not implying you'd use it at depth. Some people switch to a richer mix on ascent when they are above its MOD, but they still calculate the deco as if they are using the same mix as the bottom portion of the dive. The nitrox is not used to reduce the deco time but is instead used as an extra safety margin.

Oh yes that's what we did; switched to 40% at ~80'. I did not feel like using safety margins for a non-repetitive dive though. I'm planning for both of us to take advanced nitrox soon and be better with terminology

---------- Post added January 17th, 2013 at 11:46 AM ----------

Puberty related ear issues? My parents called that selective hearing, but I didn't think it had anything to do with diving.

I took her to EMT twice and that was their explanation. I get enough of selective hearing, too

It sounds like you made the most of it and went after MSD for the education and not the card. I think you two made a wise choice, congrats!

That was the idea. Knowledge and experience matter. Piece of plastic? Not so much

---------- Post added January 17th, 2013 at 11:54 AM ----------

Congratulations and the most important thing about this process is you got to do it with your child regardless of what anyone says. Those are times you two will never forget. I am working on my OW certification right now. Once done I am going to send my son through it. I was advised for initial certification to not do them together so I could focus onmy skills and not also worry if my son was doing okay.

Unless your son is too young to start you'd benefit from earning all the levels together. You will definitely have something to talk about. While your and your son's safety is in hands of your instructor and divemaster(s) it's the best to do what you're comfortable with.
I worry before every dive. Makes me plan them better

---------- Post added January 17th, 2013 at 12:27 PM ----------

Yeah. I know who he is. I've read some of his stuff and I've even exchanged posts with him on the internet.
But I don't KNOW him. You only truly know someone once you dive with them.
R..

I see your point. Not everyone with knowledge is able (or willing) to share it with others. I've read what other people say after taking a class from him and so far I like what I read.

 

[Mustard Dave]

I understand and have my own set of concerns. Technical diving is an overloaded name. Planning such dive helps kids with math, physics and biology. It was a very light technical dive, after all

I agree with what you say about it being an overloaded name. Diving levels are a continuum with a 6 metre bimble at one end and a 120 metre deep wreck dive with multiple cylinders at the other. You could argue all diving is technical as we have to be able to plan our no decompression limits but the accepted definition is generally anything outside of what the agencies teach us as 'recreational limits'.

I would consider any dive where a direct ascent to the surface as a technical dive in the accepted sense of the term. It was quite light as you say, but if she panicked (as divers sometimes do, regardless of how well they are trained and how well you know them), it is still a long deco stop to miss.

 

[TSandM]

It sounds as though you have been very diligent in your approach to diving.

Be careful with the tech stuff with a 14 year old, though . . . Not all bone growth is finished by that age, and the effects of technical diving on growth plates is unknown, which is why depths for younger children are kept so shallow. A lot of research has shown that a lot of technical divers bubble after dives, and the safest profiles to minimize that are not known.

The folks I know who have taken classes from JJ have said he's a good teacher, and I don't personally know him. But I CAN speak about Danny Riordan, Fred Devos, and Mark Messersmith, all of whom are EXTREMELY good.

Have you taken Fundies yet? You have two very good instructors there in Monterey. (Actually, maybe three, although I've never talked to anybody who has taken a class from Susan.)

 

[Dive Bug Bit Me]

I understand and have my own set of concerns. Technical diving is an overloaded name. Planning such dive helps kids with math, physics and biology. It was a very light technical dive, after all


Oh yes that's what we did; switched to 40% at ~80'. I did not feel like using safety margins for a non-repetitive dive though. I'm planning for both of us to take advanced nitrox soon and be better with terminology

I can almost feel your enthusiasm through your posts and applaud your excitement for diving. Sometimes it just runs in someone's blood.

There are no scuba police and you must dive how you choose. However, I cannot agree with all that has been said above by my fellow scubaboarders. It sounds like you put yourself and your 14 year old daughter into a technical dive without decompression training. (A technical dive includes where you cannot go directly to the surface because of a deco ceiling). Doing so is gambling that nothing will go wrong. You gambled with your life, you gambled with your daughter's life. I am glad that all turned out well. My concern is that you did not understand the risk that you and your daughter took on.

Imagine you had a buddy pair separation (it happens to the best of us). Would your daughter have been able to surface in order to meet up again? No, she can't go directly to the surface to look for you, but first must complete her deco stops. Imagine that her 40% failed at the same time (its happened to me once). Now she would have longer deco stops on her back gas (hopefully at the bottom of an SMB she sent up). That is a lot for a 14 year old to deal with while lost solo in the ocean. If she omits deco and surfaces, potentially she is in a chamber or wheel chair, maybe she is not. Anyway, the what if scenarios abound. My point is that any idiot can hang at a deco stop when all is going well. The Decompression Procedures course is about handling the circumstances where things go awry.

You mention cave diving. A key aspect of cave diving (in fact all technical diving) is risk assessment. The cave community is small and can be quite political. The dive you executed (and which went well) can be questioned from a risk assessment point of view. If that is within your risk appetite, then maybe cave diving is not the sport for you.

 

[Cetus]

I would consider any dive where a direct ascent to the surface as a technical dive in the accepted sense of the term.

Absolutely agree. I use "planned as an overhead dive" to eliminate the possibility of any idea of direct ascent before completing deco stop.

It was quite light as you say, but if she panicked (as divers sometimes do, regardless of how well they are trained and how well you know them), it is still a long deco stop to miss.

"Panic management" is what we are first introduced to in Rescue class but it is mentioned throughout PADI training (without naming it such) and this is a good thing. We had a few cases of panic and analyzed every one of them. We also had a few cases of bolting up in drysuit and tech trim classes. I push limits ever so little that other people wouldn't call it pushing limits at all.
That said, nothing is guaranteed and we can only have a varying level of confidence.

---------- Post added January 17th, 2013 at 03:14 PM ----------

It sounds as though you have been very diligent in your approach to diving.

Thank you! Some people I know call it anal

Be careful with the tech stuff with a 14 year old, though . . . Not all bone growth is finished by that age, and the effects of technical diving on growth plates is unknown, which is why depths for younger children are kept so shallow. A lot of research has shown that a lot of technical divers bubble after dives, and the safest profiles to minimize that are not known

Agreed with bone growth. That's why she dives exclusively Nitrox since she was Nitrox-certified at age 12.

I know PADI limits juniors to 70' but as far as I remember nether limits the number of repetitive dives nor bottom time to this depth. One can argue that anyone will bubble after 5th dive in a sigle day, especially if bottom time limits are stretched.

The folks I know who have taken classes from JJ have said he's a good teacher, and I don't personally know him. But I CAN speak about Danny Riordan, Fred Devos, and Mark Messersmith, all of whom are EXTREMELY good.

I don't have plans for the cave training yet. It's still out of my comfort zone.

Have you taken Fundies yet? You have two very good instructors there in Monterey. (Actually, maybe three, although I've never talked to anybody who has taken a class from Susan.)

Yes, Fundies are on the list. Beto is my man here; I wait for my daughter to turn 15 (2 more months) and even then we'll have to ask GUE for special permission for her to take Fundies. But my divemaster and advanced nitrox certs for both come before Fundies on my list

 

[Diver0001]

Thank you! Some people I know call it anal

a rose by any other name

Thing with being diligent is that it can slip into perfectionism. That's when you drive yourself crazy. I would know. So would Lynne

I liked reading your story. I have a daughter who just turned 14 and I told her I would train her this year. I've taken her to the pool with me on and off for the last few years but aside from showing her (in her words) some "cool tricks" I refused to train her before now.

My experience as an instructor has been mixed and tilts to the negative with training kids under the age of about 13. As a general rule my conclusion is that I should advise against it. Not that I'm not good enough with kids, but I'm picky (you could say "diligent" ) as an instructor and I find too too few young kids risk averse enough for my comfort.

R..

 

[spectrum]

So we're at < than 100 dives with a significant number of those as training dives. Some % of the remaining independent dives were warm water. Now we are making ambitious cold water "technical dives" dives with a young adult with comparable training and experieince?

Part of me wants to walk before you run but you're out of the gate. Be careful.

Pete

 

[Cetus]

So we're at < than 100 dives with a significant number of those as training dives. Some % of the remaining independent dives were warm water. Now we are making ambitious cold water "technical dives" dives with a young adult with comparable training and experieince?

All the training and recreational dives are in Monterey, CA. 10 boat dives on Maui.
What you call cold water is our home here.

 

[flots am]

My back gas (28%) was in GUE-compliant doubles rig, 2x100cf steel tanks. Accelerated deco mix (40%) was in 80cf stage. Using 40% as additional safety at 125'/38m might kill you as its MOD is only 82'/25m. The dive was planned as an overhead dive, without actual overhead. I used v-planner to plan that multi-level dive. Deco obligation was 13 minutes at 30', after some time shallower than 125. It was, after all a shore dive and many people here do it on 32% but I'm too young to die. You can see a picture of me fully geared up near Hole in the Wall on my profile. Again our setups are fully GUE-compliant and go way beyond required for MSD level but that would be a subject of a separate thread.

I'm not sure if anybody explained this yet, but I'll put on my Mr. Obviousman hat just in case. If you already know this stuff, please ignore me.

The difference between recreational open water diving and technical diving is that in open-water, the surface is always available. No matter how badly things go, you can always bug out and head for the surface.

Once you have a physical or virtual overhead, like a deco obligation, this is no longer possible. No matter what happens (out of air, having a panic attack, drysuit flooded, food poisoning, drug reaction, accidentally stabbed yourself, freezing cold, whatever) it doesn't matter because if you surface, you stand a good chance of becoming injured or dead.

GUE has only a little to do with equipment and everything to do with training. Having the equipment is meaningless without the training and a similarly trained buddy and in fact, is worse than meaningless because it gives a false sense of safety.

I'm glad you're OK, but would recommend that you avoid any sort of overhead dives until you've had actual overhead training.

Also, there's something else that I don't believe you're considering. Even with proper training, it's entirely possible to get killed. It only takes one mistake. If I had a 14 year old son, I'd be very wary of taking on any significant risk where the payoff is just some extra excitement. SCUBA training isn't a "race to the top"

flots.

 

[Cetus]

I can almost feel your enthusiasm through your posts and applaud your excitement for diving.

Not exactly what I feel. I actually worry before every dive. I mentioned it makes me plan my dives better.

My point is that any idiot can hang at a deco stop when all is going well. The Decompression Procedures course is about handling the circumstances where things go awry.

How exactly not an idiot handles buddy separation and loss of gas?

Accordingly to this site: Decompression Procedures Course, prerequisites for the Decompression Procedures course are "Certification as Nitrox Diver with a minimum of 25 logged dives in the environment in which the course is presented." Are you saying that every bubble maker with 25 dives can be prepared for the scenarios you described?

You mention cave diving. A key aspect of cave diving (in fact all technical diving) is risk assessment. The cave community is small and can be quite political. The dive you executed (and which went well) can be questioned from a risk assessment point of view. If that is within your risk appetite, then maybe cave diving is not the sport for you.

Every dive can be questioned from the risk assessment point of view. I have no appetite for risk whatsoever; this is not why I dive. Risk of cave diving is still outweighs benefits of it in my mind. I mentioned cave diving in a context of training and learning from the best instructors available.