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Touche. I know who I am.
Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training
- Thread starter tstormdiver
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I agree with the statement that "You don't know what you don't know". That is the risk, however its like exploring, one step at a time and you feel your way, yes it has risk but its calculated risk rather than rushing in head first all the way. Yes you can get caught out, and yes you could die.
My experience was to go to Truk lagoon with little knowledge of the diving other than its a great place to dive and heaps of wrecks. I was expecting all this information from the tour leader in a meeting which did not happen before we started our three month holiday. It was only just before I left for Guam that the tour leader emailed me and asked if I was diving twins or singles? I advised I had no experience in twins so would have singles. I then emailed Truk direct and started finding out more about the diving conditions, depth etc. I then sought detail about depths and conditions.
On getting there I discussed with the dive master there and we decided on 15 litre singles and a 6 litre sling tank with 50% Nitrox slug at 5 m under the dive vessel. Most of the dives we to 45m or less however we were facing a couple of 55m dives. I discussed this with my wife and we decided to do the following;
Let the group dive to the depth and time they wished (to prevent us being an issue and spoiling their dive)
We would go down at our rate and to a depth we decide and would stop our dive at our time rather than to feel we had to stay with a group.
Ensure we would not breach 55m
Ensure we would watch our air and abort at anytime we felt things were not right, no repercussions.
We would dive the plan and follow our deco plan and add some as a safety margin, and would also use the 50% nitrox for 3 min after finishing our (extended) deco
We did the dive and several other dives always following a dive plan and enjoyed the experience immensely. Funnily enough we always came back with more air that the guys diving twins. I might add that 90% of the group had no training in deco, advanced nitrox and little if any in twin tanks. This I think reflects on the tour leader. Some people only had about 25 dives up. I had knowledge of MOD, narcosis and air calculations, SAC rate etc so felt reasonably comfortable and did realise there is some risk involved. We have also done many dives to 40m.
As an example in using ones head and diving to ones ability, on the first dive for us, we dived a wreck but they had organised 2 groups to penetrate. One in one side of the hull and another in the other side. Meet somewhere in the middle and pass by (fraught with danger I think). Anyway we were the last to enter and the other group had already come nearly all the way through. It was a great muddle up as we met (as to be expected) and we found ourselves not able to see our group when passed the other group. We could have continued and guessed our way through and hoped to see a light but that was just stupid, so we turned around and came back out with the other group and went up and over to meet our group on the other side. Now that planning was just plain stupid. A diver with little experience may have tried to continue and would most probably got lost. It was experience and using a safe diving approach that stopped us from continuing. A lesser diver "doesn't know what they don't know, often until it is too late.
On my return home I recognised we took some risk and thus needed further training to reduce the risks of deep diving so completed Adv Nitrox, Decompression theory and doing extended range & Trimix. In looking back on our experience we had covered most of the requirements for deep diving, but perhaps needed more redundancy and larger sling tank or twins and sling.
So I guess in summary I would say;
I do recognise without good training we really "dont know what we dont know" and that's a very real risk.
Whilst that may not prevent us from pushing boundaries, read up and do it slowly if you cant get the training, DONT RUSH AHEAD AND BE A STATISTIC. Become knowledgeable as much as possible, don't be lazy and not make an effort.
Understand the risks and their impact on you and your buddy, don't just ignore them or "Murphy" will get you.
There is a point where experimental becomes stupidity, recognise it and don't go there.
There is no underwater police so you know you can do anything, also recognise there is no underwater emergency 000, so you are on your own
My experience was to go to Truk lagoon with little knowledge of the diving other than its a great place to dive and heaps of wrecks. I was expecting all this information from the tour leader in a meeting which did not happen before we started our three month holiday. It was only just before I left for Guam that the tour leader emailed me and asked if I was diving twins or singles? I advised I had no experience in twins so would have singles. I then emailed Truk direct and started finding out more about the diving conditions, depth etc. I then sought detail about depths and conditions.
On getting there I discussed with the dive master there and we decided on 15 litre singles and a 6 litre sling tank with 50% Nitrox slug at 5 m under the dive vessel. Most of the dives we to 45m or less however we were facing a couple of 55m dives. I discussed this with my wife and we decided to do the following;
Let the group dive to the depth and time they wished (to prevent us being an issue and spoiling their dive)
We would go down at our rate and to a depth we decide and would stop our dive at our time rather than to feel we had to stay with a group.
Ensure we would not breach 55m
Ensure we would watch our air and abort at anytime we felt things were not right, no repercussions.
We would dive the plan and follow our deco plan and add some as a safety margin, and would also use the 50% nitrox for 3 min after finishing our (extended) deco
We did the dive and several other dives always following a dive plan and enjoyed the experience immensely. Funnily enough we always came back with more air that the guys diving twins. I might add that 90% of the group had no training in deco, advanced nitrox and little if any in twin tanks. This I think reflects on the tour leader. Some people only had about 25 dives up. I had knowledge of MOD, narcosis and air calculations, SAC rate etc so felt reasonably comfortable and did realise there is some risk involved. We have also done many dives to 40m.
As an example in using ones head and diving to ones ability, on the first dive for us, we dived a wreck but they had organised 2 groups to penetrate. One in one side of the hull and another in the other side. Meet somewhere in the middle and pass by (fraught with danger I think). Anyway we were the last to enter and the other group had already come nearly all the way through. It was a great muddle up as we met (as to be expected) and we found ourselves not able to see our group when passed the other group. We could have continued and guessed our way through and hoped to see a light but that was just stupid, so we turned around and came back out with the other group and went up and over to meet our group on the other side. Now that planning was just plain stupid. A diver with little experience may have tried to continue and would most probably got lost. It was experience and using a safe diving approach that stopped us from continuing. A lesser diver "doesn't know what they don't know, often until it is too late.
On my return home I recognised we took some risk and thus needed further training to reduce the risks of deep diving so completed Adv Nitrox, Decompression theory and doing extended range & Trimix. In looking back on our experience we had covered most of the requirements for deep diving, but perhaps needed more redundancy and larger sling tank or twins and sling.
So I guess in summary I would say;
I do recognise without good training we really "dont know what we dont know" and that's a very real risk.
Whilst that may not prevent us from pushing boundaries, read up and do it slowly if you cant get the training, DONT RUSH AHEAD AND BE A STATISTIC. Become knowledgeable as much as possible, don't be lazy and not make an effort.
Understand the risks and their impact on you and your buddy, don't just ignore them or "Murphy" will get you.
There is a point where experimental becomes stupidity, recognise it and don't go there.
There is no underwater police so you know you can do anything, also recognise there is no underwater emergency 000, so you are on your own
Bob DBF
Contributor
So far so good on that score.
As I remember, the tables I used in the early '60's only went to 190'. I don't know if the book considered it the recreational limit, or the Navy had not cut tables for SCUBA that deep yet, considering a Hardhat could stay longer and get more done for the effort. Do you have any insight or was it just a random event?
As for diving 190, I really have to want something down there pretty bad to go, I never found it to be warm and fuzzy, it was strictly business. And to be clear to others, there were no "tech divers" back then and what we had was air.
Bob
------------------------------------------
A man's got to know his limitations.
Harry Callahan
Divng without additional training, especially in those areas considered technical diving is like taking a new pilot who is certified to fly a Cessna 172 and putting them in an F-18. Would you try to land aboard an aircraft carrier at night in stormy weather in an F-18 if your only training was in a Cessna 172?
Dr. Lecter
Contributor
I'd be interested to hear how you determined that "Divng without additional training" (whatever that means) necessarily entails risks roughly equivalent to those involved in a new Cessna pilot trying to land an F-18 on a carrier at night in a storm. Of course, if you just thought it sounds like a really scary analogy that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy, and don't really understand how the risks are/aren't the same at all...well, I'd be less interested.
Maybe a brand new PADI OW diver given a CCR and told to make a deep penetration dive on the Doria in particularly nasty currents was what you meant to say?
Maybe a brand new PADI OW diver given a CCR and told to make a deep penetration dive on the Doria in particularly nasty currents was what you meant to say?
Granted I myself have gone to 197 feet on air and although, nothing bad came out of it I certainly understand that it wasn't the smartest thing to do. We are only just beginning to understand the physiological effects of O2 and N on the body and everyone reacts differently to differing conditions.
Considering that diving at those depths isn't something that you could get up and out off easily, it would be sensible not to push the limits if you are unsure of the your abilities.
Considering that diving at those depths isn't something that you could get up and out off easily, it would be sensible not to push the limits if you are unsure of the your abilities.
pgm1
New
I place a lot of the blame with greed hiding behind "safety."
For recreational diving, many of the big certification brands are all about sales, and the dive shops make a lot of money from training. For recreational diving to 40mtr some form of OW is essential. But the single dives in AOW are almost worthless--as is the additional math as you should have a dive computer and have learned to use tables in your first course. It's possible to upsell some schmuck back to back OW/AOW "advanced with 5 dives, What the hell?" and a "deep diver cert?" So the inexperienced clueless newbie is now doing 40meter dives! Not especially dangerous--but it completely depends on the diver, right? So what matters in the recreational setting?:
Experience
Experience
Experience (hopefully gained by diving with people above your level who can teach you (normally an instructor/experienced divemaster or the like)
and appropriate knowledge paired with good judgment
For those pursuing rescue, instructor, or tech skills, it's a different story (but that's less than 10% of divers/divers)
I am not saying the recreational courses don't do a reasonable job, it's only their value beyond the basics should be seriously questioned.
For recreational diving, many of the big certification brands are all about sales, and the dive shops make a lot of money from training. For recreational diving to 40mtr some form of OW is essential. But the single dives in AOW are almost worthless--as is the additional math as you should have a dive computer and have learned to use tables in your first course. It's possible to upsell some schmuck back to back OW/AOW "advanced with 5 dives, What the hell?" and a "deep diver cert?" So the inexperienced clueless newbie is now doing 40meter dives! Not especially dangerous--but it completely depends on the diver, right? So what matters in the recreational setting?:
Experience
Experience
Experience (hopefully gained by diving with people above your level who can teach you (normally an instructor/experienced divemaster or the like)
and appropriate knowledge paired with good judgment
For those pursuing rescue, instructor, or tech skills, it's a different story (but that's less than 10% of divers/divers)
I am not saying the recreational courses don't do a reasonable job, it's only their value beyond the basics should be seriously questioned.
If you've been brought up in a social system where rules and regulations are to be followed then someone deciding a course of action for themselves might seem irresponsible. Personally I admire someone who does their own risk assessment and acts independantly. Thankfully the dive industry has resisted moves towards proprietary ownership by those with a penchant for controlling/subordinating others. Regulation can sometimes be a smoke-screen for making money by narrowing providers and ensuring oligopoly access, or a way of massaging ego's. The world is full of people wanting to control the behaviour and belief systems of others so I say to anyone who wants to try something without formal 'training', good luck to you and bottom line, apart from me giving an opinion concealed as advice, it is none of my business.
The short answer to your question is, who cares if someone doesn't go through formal training (like Emile Gagnan and Jaques Cousteau)? If someone wants to try something new and it doesn't impact anyone else then leave them alone and good luck to them. This is all predicated on the definition of risk being relative, and people being free to act independantly of others.
The short answer to your question is, who cares if someone doesn't go through formal training (like Emile Gagnan and Jaques Cousteau)? If someone wants to try something new and it doesn't impact anyone else then leave them alone and good luck to them. This is all predicated on the definition of risk being relative, and people being free to act independantly of others.
Jake 12116
New
some people don't know the risks, I personally am working on master scuba diver (going to do rescue soon) and would never go outside my training level, why take that risk? their lives and they can lead them how they want, but the people who take the time to get trained and learn more will be much safer. I don't see that extra risk as fun but some do, perhaps that's why they do it. I don't think anyone will ever really know the answer to that question.
Agree, the phase "feel lucky punk!" keeps coming to my mind when even I try to push the limits... lol!
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