Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

[timccr]

Sure you can dive 180 feet on air but you will be off your trolley down there. And the dangerous bit is that you probably won't realise how far gone you are. In my experience of guiding dives most people claim "I felt normal down there, wasn't narked at all" but judging by the grins and big doubled handed OK's they gave they were actually on another planet. And how many dives do you need to be an Advanced Diver? Probably rather more than the training agencies suggest. I always encouraged my students to just go diving for a bit rather than try and sign them up straight away for the next course. So appropriate training is actually probably not just doing another little course or two at the local dive centre. But please don't ever take away my right to be an idiot and kill myself.

 

[billgraham]

So who is more reckless and has more bravado? someone who decides to try it in the middle of a dive, or the person who has the idea in the middle of a dive, then goes home and pulls up maps and charts, watches videos of others diving that cave, and posts on forums to get the "lay of the land" from those who have been before... THEN, with information in hand makes a decision whether or not to do the act?

My issue here is that it puts others in danger. One of my best friends has saved FOUR divers in caves just this year. Yes, he is badass, but how many panicked, out of air divers do I want to encounter in a cave? How about none?!

One constant for me in diving has been the more I've learned, the more I've realized I don't know. Cave diving involves a specific set of PHYSICAL skills that can only be learned by DOING it with an INSTRUCTOR. You can't watch a video, read a book, look at a map, scour the internet and go for it.

I do not understand the resistance to training. I'm just a diver, I haven't analyzed the data, but I'm willing to bet lack of training is the number one commonality in cave fatalities.

---------- Post added December 8th, 2012 at 09:35 AM ----------

I understand you are a student right now. But do you really believe that training is the only way to gain knowledge?

For certain types of diving, the answer is definitely yes. Do you expect to assemble, test and strap on a CCR with no training, go diving and live? That's like saying you're going to jump in a plane with no training and fly it. Same for cave diving, trimix diving, fill in the blank.

 

[SCUBAROY]

My question becomes: "What defines training and who gets to define it?" Is training just reading as much as possible or is it an absolute must that you find a paid instructor or more experienced mentor to learn?

I tend to be one of those people who pushes the limits slightly but not in such exaggerated ways that will really put my chances of survival at even close to even. I learned rock climbing by leading my very first climb on a 5.8 pitch in the rain. Not typical but probably not life threatening. I just did my first dry suit dives this past weekend without finishing the course. (I did read the manual and have some mentors available though.) I won't ever be doing real caves or bounce dives (with or without training) though, because I have no need to push the envelope that much. I'm somewhere in the middle, mindset wise, of those who want an instructor holding their hand through every step and those who go out and try the most advanced dives after getting their OW card.

Your example of the bounce divers shows my point. The divers said they planned the dive. They apparently considered the need for deco bottles and even used them (???) and completed the dive successfully. Yes, people will always disagree on the safety of such dives but clearly the divers performing them considered the dive and planned accordingly. What extra training is required for something like that? Does the number of previous dives really matter as long as the dive was planned and then dived according to the plan? (Yes I recognize the possibility of emergencies and survival of them changes with dives like this.)

The mentality isn't necessarily about being a pioneer. If that was the case no one would ever repeat any dive, anywhere. Or climb any mountain that has already been climbed. It's about experiencing something you haven't. (Or about experiencing something that others haven't, if it's motivated more by ego than spiritual growth.) Just because you don't have that ego or spirit doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. Someone has to have that spirit/ego to push us all to the next level.

Also consider that the "odds" aren't really as bad as people think, statistically. More people survive those dives than die. Hence, the odds are actually in the diver's favor, even with the least amount of training.

THIS MENTALITY and lack of reasoning is ridiculous. It is akin to saying" just becuz there are safe ways to handle or manufacture explosives, doesn't mean I should follow those practices or even bother with training. I mean the odds of getting blown up aren't that great. Besides I like to push the limits and advance the "science". Do you dive solo too?

Diving beyond ones training and skills is very dangerous and can be fatal. AS IN "DRT". DEAD RIGHT THERE!!!

 

[billgraham]

You must think it a miracle that anyone in NY/NJ survived the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s.

AWD's accomplishments cannot be overstated. Like the WKPP with beer.

 

[SCUBAROY]

ALSO I dive for fun. Diving beyond your training or experience can kill you. Last time I checked , dyin' wasn't on my list of fun things to do.

 

[watercooled81]

I am a diver who has gone beyond my certificates. I am AOW, I regular dive to 40 to 45 meters, pentrate wrecks and caves. I dive in a drysuit which I have never had offical training. My regular buddy just has his openwater. we have been diving together for over 15 years, with over 600 dives. Certificate wise I should be no where near the dives I do.
I also solo dive which will freak most peope out on here, but its no different then going surfing or swiming by yourself. You just be extra careful and tae extra precautions....
For example if i solo dive, I always have a pony bottle no matter what depth. When diving with a buddy, i will take a pony with me, when i go deeper then 20m.

However, From OW to a deep diver with wreck etc, can be done in a few weeks training and probably totalling something like 40 dives. How does is this person any more prepared then me?
I believe the question around not what sort of dives are you qualified to do, but how you go about them. Do you research diving for hours and hours, plan your dive to the nineth degree..
How good are you with your skills, how ofter do you practice. do you prat about on the bottom, do you pay attention to whats going on? If you think nothing is going to happen because you have every qualification then thats worse...

I took up diving as I love to expore, and thats what I do... I also rock climb, Mountain Bike, Surf - These are just as dangerous as diving but I never had official training.

 

[pme34847]

I really think most preople slide into the problem gradually and do not realize they are breaking their "training limit". There are many examples of fully trained cave divers making careless mistakes. A couple of correct statements were made earlier.
There are no scuba police.
Guys have have testosterone issues.

However I do not agree with "scaring" beginning OW divers. The instructor should adequately explain nitrogen narcosis and not show pictures of dead divers. For example my problem with nitrogen is time dilation. I don't feel "narced" I just don't realize time is passing. That can be a problem at 170'. Oxygen toxicity should be discussed in more detail as well.

One of the problems is the "greed" which pervades certain agencies. $$ for each speciality. This causes an artificial limit to training.

 

[billgraham]

Don't assume just because someone hasn't done it before, though, that they don't know what to do and how to do it.

Sorry, that's exactly what I'm going to assume!

 

[endurodog]

Following this thread for a while and there is a wide swath of things that are outside of ones training. A PADI OW diver that dives to 75' is outside of their training recommendations and so is that same diver that does a cave dive but they are are much different threat levels. Now these are generic examples to make a point. At what point is the behavior beyond low risk, new learning and does it cross in to fool hardy behavior.

 

[gunter1953]

Tammy:

You have obviously given this topic some very serious consideration by listing a laundry list of possibilities to explain/understand a persons motivation for carrying out such "Stupidity" as Diving beyond thier Limits/Training each of which merits consideration and MAY be the reason however you did leave off one which is "Adreline Junkie" being a person taking risk who is addicted to the "Rush" of adreline when conducting some challenging and dangerous feat. At any rate since there have been numerous people (Thousands or even Hundreds of Thousands come before us diving to such limits so I can't attribute this persons reasoning as the "going where no man has Gone before" theory suggested. I think anyone who has completed thier Open Water Course and obtained their certification is NOT a 'Stupid' person but I remember what Forest Gump said in the Movie with his name sake as title being "Stupid is as Stupid Does"! Intelegent people can and often do 'Stuppid' acts.
There are Parameters to which people are Certified thereto from Open Water to Master Scuba Diver and are suggested limits for safety by the Certifying Agency (mine happens to be P.A.D.I) which should be followed even though everyone is not teh same and some ae more proficient than others at any given stage of training.
Additionally, I think most everyone who Scuba's has a fairly good idea of what they should or should not attempt and then when down below if they question thier actions or feel uneasy and unsure about the dive then should abort. It is always better to abort and live to dive another day. Remember, some may make it throgh the dives but it only takes one Deadly Mistake to ensre that will be your last dive. And, if one tempts the hand of fait once too many times, well the Law of Averages will catch up to them and that will be thier LAST DIVE.

Scuba Diving has been a God Send to me since I injured myself adn have had 11 surgeries 7 on my rt. knee) in the past from College and Pro Football days. Diving is very low impact on my knees and allows me to enjoy a sport thats literally makes me feel closer to God each time I witness the Neon Beauty of a Coral Reef with all it inhabitants.

So as a fellow diver, a Master Scuba Diver and an Instructor, I will only OFFER you and everyone else my Free Advice. "Diving is a great hobbyand sport, one that will give you a lifetime of fun, adventure, thrills, education, and enjoyment mos people on this planet will never get to enjoy and when approached with the seriousness of safety issues being followed and knowing ones training and thier limits can be a safe and wonderful experience. Follow your training suggestions by your certifying agency and listen to your inner self and don't do anything questionable or that makes you feel uneasy."
If everyone follows these suggestions they will separate tragedy from the equation and keep a lfetime of memories every time they think back on the dives the log, such I I do.
Thanks,
H. Glenn Gunter
Master Scuba Diver
PADI Instructor #90677